What Works / What Don't

[tx river rat]

Just a little note on the aluminum cook ware,
Since reading the study where every altiemers patient that was checked had aluminum in the brain ,I dont drink from alum cans or cook with alumi cookware
Ron

 

[Kayak Jack]

Ronnie is correct in saying that graphite does not "mix" with epoxy. I think what he means (maybe I didn't understand all of it?) is that they two do not chemically bond. They do mix, similar to sugar and water. The original components can again be separated or identified. They do not chemically bond and combine as would sulfuric acid and aluminum. These would make an entirely new substance, and we could no longer separate it back into the two original components. Epoxy and graphite is a mixture; it can be put together in any ratio, and it can be separated.

I haven't done a either Brinnell or a Rockwell hardness test to verify, so your supposition that the reason for a lesser and deeper mark/gouge is due to slipperiness may be right. But, I don't think so. It definitely seems harder.

When, say, a pointy rock rubs against an epoxy/graphite coating, each one is affected. Both the rock and the epoxy wear off some of the other one. This will expose some bits of graphite along the path of that scratch. So part of the slippery factor there could be attributed to lubricity of graphite. Another component might well be that the rock simply doesn't move as much material because epoxy that has been graphite enriched is harder, so the rock penetrates much less.

However, when slipping through glurpy water lilies, I don't see them wearing into the epoxy to expose any graphite. In this case, I'd expect the outer slickness to be responsible for easier travel.

 

[tx river rat]

Jack
Water and sugar blends when the sugar melts ,graphite doesnt melt ,it stays in small particles
which are imbeded in epoxy. the graphite is in the same form as when you mixed it.
Going threw weeds ,yes you do have wear but a very small amount.
basicaly you have a hole filled with a solid ,the graphite stays in its original form ,so every time you rub over it you rub a little of the solid off. , sanding opens more of these holes.

Try this take epoxy the same thickness as an epoxy mix with graphite let them dry then stick an ice pic straight into them ,want be any difference. Another thing to look at is how hard it is to get the lumps out of your epoxy graphite mix ,you are not desolving them like sugar ,you have to stir till they get suspended and individual particles get a coat of epoxy surrounding them. Your aluminum mix is the same it doesnt turn to a liquid it is suspended in epoxy and the particles that are sticking out take the wear instead of the epoxy.
I think one of these days I am going to try graphite in some rusolem paint ,I bet it would work the same . Paddling beside boats with graphite and the ones I build with paint I cant tell much difference in the wear.
Ron

 

[oldsparkey]

Something else I found to be quite good for the bottom of a boat , especially if you want it slippery and not black but in a color of your choosing. I used it on the 1st two boats I made before learning about and deciding to try the graphite and epoxy mix.

The 1st boat I made has it on it , the kayak ( Pygmy Coho ) the kid has in Canada at this time. Then the 1st pirogue had it. Later down the road the Sasquatch Canoe and even the Bayou Skiff. I tend to alternate between it and the graphite and epoxy mix.
"O" The Kayak is 11 years old and the bottom was still is in the shape it was when I finished coating it when Mary and Neil got the boats to take back with them.

I use my boats and equipment and try not to abuse them , when possible , this way they last a lot longer.

It's the Interlux - Brightside Polyurethane paint.
As they say ..... Interlux Brightside Polyurethane is the most technically advanced one-part polyurethane available.

The beauty of it is that it has a percentage of Teflon in it. I can tell you that it is some tough stuff. Out on the Brazos River with the guy's we had some rapids to go threw and in the process I did bottom out on some of the rocks , several times. One actually shoved the bottom of the canoe up a little as I scraped over it. I watched that rise in the bottom from the start to the finish. Another I got hung up on and had to push off of it. I was sure there would be some major damage to the bottom of the canoe but at home I checked it and all there was were a few scratches and some rub marks on it , nothing serious.

It is harder , or I should say more time consuming to apply it to the boat.
1. You have to prime the bottom with a filler and when that dries , sand most of it off.
2. The apply the 1st coat of the paint and let it dry.
3. Another coat and let it dry.
4. The final coat and let it dry.
5.Let the boat rest with the bottom up for a couple of weeks so the chemicals bond and completely cure...

The down side , it costs a lot more then the few dollars bag of the graphite , about $75.00 for the primer and the paint ( combination) depending on where you purchase it.

Chuck.........

 

[tx river rat]

I will add this,
It want be enough difference that you can feel it just paddling and as one builder told me it looks good and is a coat that you sacrifice to wear and being black it is easy to see where you need to repair a boat and where you get the most wear.
Ron

 

[Kayak Jack]

Jack
Water and sugar blends when the sugar melts ,graphite doesnt melt ,it stays in small particles
which are imbeded in epoxy. the graphite is in the same form as when you mixed it.
Going threw weeds ,yes you do have wear but a very small amount.
basicaly you have a hole filled with a solid ,the graphite stays in its original form ,so every time you rub over it you rub a little of the solid off. , sanding opens more of these holes.

Try this take epoxy the same thickness as an epoxy mix with graphite let them dry then stick an ice pic straight into them ,want be any difference. Another thing to look at is how hard it is to get the lumps out of your epoxy graphite mix ,you are not desolving them like sugar ,you have to stir till they get suspended and individual particles get a coat of epoxy surrounding them. Your aluminum mix is the same it doesnt turn to a liquid it is suspended in epoxy and the particles that are sticking out take the wear instead of the epoxy.
I think one of these days I am going to try graphite in some rusolem paint ,I bet it would work the same . Paddling beside boats with graphite and the ones I build with paint I cant tell much difference in the wear.
Ron

Ronnie, do you understand the difference between a mixture and a compound? Your examples above indicate you have confusion on the issue. Your point about an ice pick my well be true; I haven't tried it. Have you? Each sample must have the same anvil for resistance to movement, a measuring device, etc. so that it resembles the reliability and accuracy of Brinnell or Rockwell. An ice pick in your back yard doesn't hack it. Neither do experiments with toy boats.

To what do you attribute the ability of a mix of graphite and epoxy to better withstand abuse and present less friction? We're discussing ere whether it's hardness, slickness of finish, or lubricity of graphite. Maybe there's some other characteristic we haven't thought of.

 

[beekeeper]

Only three people have actually weighed their boat?
Mine and Joey's were similar(construction and weight). Chuck built two light weight ones. Anybody else?

How many boats have you built? What was your favorite/least favorite one to build? Why?
5 for me. The two skiffs I built for my son and grandson were fun to build. My pirogue gave me fits and one frustration after another because it was uncharted territory for me. It is becomeing my favorite, because it works.

What part of boat building do you like the most/least?
I like planning and the woodwork. I don't like finishing (paint/varnish).

 

[Kayak Jack]

Boats I've built weigh between 40-42 pounds pretty consistently. I get a bit messy and dauby with epoxy.

 

[jdupre']

I've built 2 pirogues... a 12' and a 16' .... and a kayak and helped on a couple of pirogues with a friend. The 12' one was a terrible boat. I built it like most of the others were built in this area -- short, lots of rocker with two seats. The design was well suited to short trips into swampy areas for duck hunting, trapping , etc. It was NOT!!! a touring boat. It would turn on a dime, even when you didn't want it to.

The second pirogue is 16' x25". It's as close to a perfect boat for my use as I could ask for. A bit heavy because I used traditional building methods and a bit high on maintenance because of the nature of douglas fir ply. It eats up miles with no fuss, is stable enough to fish out of and will hold a ton of stuff for an extended camping trip. My favorite parts of building the pirogues was planing down the sides and chines level to fit the bottom. My dad's 24" jointer plane, tuned up and blade sharpened, slicing long curls of wood from one end to the other while making that high pitched whining sound. Wood heaven!

The Swamper kayak was a completely different experience. It's not so much building as it is assembling. I loved the design aspect. I also loved the spontaneous designing of EVERY piece of the boat. No dots to connect, no lines to follow, no measurements to adhere to. I wanted a part to look a certain way so I cut and trimmed til it looked that way. Not for the guy that needs blueprint to build a birdhouse.
The Swamper has become my favorite boat for it's versatility. Touring , camping and fishing are easily handled. There is ENOUGH room for these activities but certainly not a lot of EXCESS room. One location sensitive fault that it has is that you can't get out over the bow like a pirogue. Not having sand bars or nice sloping gravel banks to sidle up to makes it challenging to get in and out of.

Joey

 

[Kayak Jack]

<SNIP> Not having sand bars or nice sloping gravel banks to sidle up to makes it challenging to get in and out of.

Always bring along a sand bar or gravel beach on fishing/camping trip. Pack them near the center of a boat, in easy reach. :wink:

 

[oldsparkey]

. Not having sand bars or nice sloping gravel banks to sidle up to makes it challenging to get in and out of.

Joey

:shock: :shock: :shock: ..............
There are rivers without sand bars in them , Bummer. That stink's , that means there is no way you can have sand in your shoes , boat , bedding and even your food. That removes all the fun of camping and being out there. If you are camping and don't have a few pounds of sand in your gear when you get home , then why go camping?

There is nothing nicer then camping on a sand bar and sitting out on it in the moonlight watching the stars as they move overhead. A nice white ( sugar sand ) bar in the moonlight makes Yankees think they are sitting out in the snow with nothing but warmth all around and in comfort while not freezing.

Camping on a river without a sand bar is like having a Vienna ( an hot sauce ) without some Ritz Crackers or having a cold bottle of Coke-a-Cola without some peanuts floating in it , hit's just not right , could call it a , serious , crime against nature.

The fun starts as soon as you pull your boat up on the sand bar and steak out an area to camp in. Then an area for the fire down near the river and naturally a good place for everyone to place there chairs around the campfire for later that evening. Keeping in mind the river is the background for all activities so everything is normally facing the river.

 

[tx river rat]

Jack
The remarks about the toy boats an the icepick . I will address them first. I ran some test on a couple things we discussed here on the forum,and they proved to my satisfaction that my theory was correct. So the smart a$$ed remarks about toy boats and ice picks wasnt called for.
Everything you drive ,fly was tested with a toy as you call them,most folks call them models.
At least I took the time to build something and try it instead of just talking about it.

Ok back to your three question at the last of your post.

To what do you attribute the ability of a mix of graphite and epoxy to better withstand abuse and present less friction? We're discussing ere whether it's hardness, slickness of finish, or lubricity of graphite. Maybe there's some other characteristic we haven't thought of.

I am going to simplify this for you no big words, and give you 2 examples ,take a hand full of pencils ,graphite is suspended in wood ,,if you clamp them together points all one direction and rub your hand across the points ,you will leave graphite on what you rub across them ,now sand them ,that will give you more graphite surfaces because of the increase in circumference of the graphite as it get shorter. now what you have is graphite suspended in wood the same basic combo you have when you suspend graphite in epoxy, you havent combined them ,they are joined but there properties havent changed.
The next example is take a pot of lead ,melt it ,, throw in some chunks of tool steel and let it cool now take a grinder and start grinding on it the tool steel protruding will be much harder than the lead and the block of metal will wear a ton longer ,but the tool steel and the lead are the same as when you threw them in the pot.
So to answer your questions Nope graphite enriched with epoxy is not harder, yes it is slicker from the release of the graphite so it is lubricated and has less friction.
What you have forgotten is this you build your boat complete it , then you put three more coats of the enriched epoxy on top of three or four coats of normal epoxy you build with. So that area is going to be stiffer (6 coats instead of 3). Now why do you put it on IT IS A SACRIFICIAL COAT TO PROTECT THE BOAT key word here is sacrificial .

I have built 12 boats so far,yea I am a boat junky :shock: My first boat weighed around 80 lbs. I have built as light as 35 lbs since then but what seems to work the best for me is between 40 and 50 lbs
I think the boat I am building now will be around 40 lbs.
The thing I enjoy about building wood boats is being able to take what works for me in diferent boats and combine them in the latest on for more comfort ,speed , paddling efficiency and use in my location

Ron
I hope I havent offended anyone but I have a southern trait ,I talk to folks the same way they talk to me. good or bad that is my personality.

 

[beekeeper]

Joey
Our pirogues are a lot of like. Mine is 15'-8" on top, the floor is 25" wide and 14' long. My sides(stem angle) were cut 8" on 12" not 12" on 12" (45deg.) like the Gator and UJ plans. What is the length of the floor?
Is the V bottom of the swamper working for you?

Jack
Stich and glue, luan, size, etc. ?

beekeeper

 

[Kayak Jack]

All of my boats are stitch and glue, Okoume mahogany. Length ranges from 13.5' - 17.3'. Width varied so somehow the weight seemed to remain in that 40-42 lb range.

 

[Kayak Jack]

I ran some test on a couple things we discussed here on the forum,and they proved to my satisfaction that my theory was correct.

As long as you're satisfied, Ron, that suits your purposes.

 

[tx river rat]

That is completely accurate Jack ,see we can agree on something.
Ron

 

[oldsparkey]

Thank You Gentleman ( I use that term loosely ) for ending a discussion that needed to die a long time ago.

It appears the discussion about the epoxy and graphite has run the gamut from serious to hysterical and now finally to disgusting. It's been run into the dirt so far down it could be called a Coal Mine or deep sea drilling. Give it break before Jack and anyone else gets into a fist-a-cuffs or actually a stronger case of it on here since it seams to be progressing pass the ridicules point. :twisted:
In plain language , continue the discussion if you want to but not on here about the graphite and epoxy , we ... WILL ... move on to different subject matter , if you get my drift.

I would suggest :| we do as beekeeper requested...... That's changing the subject matter to these questions......
1...How many boats have you built? What was your favorite/least favorite one to build? Why?
2...What part of boat building do you like the most/least?
3...I like planning and the woodwork. I don't like finishing (paint/varnish)

 

[jdupre']

Bee, the floor is 14' long. Length along the top is 16' 3" if you count my extended stem decorations. I can't honestly say that the V bottom changes anything in a dramatic way. I'm sure it helps some. Just for comparison, I can cruise comfortabaly at about 3.6 mph or a trifle more in the pirogue. The Swamper can cruise at about 3.9 mph + or - . Noticeable but not earthshaking. BUT, to do that, the Swamper has a waterline length about a foot longer, 3 " less beam and weighs 15 or so lbs. less. That is a dramatic difference in design to get about 10 % more effeciency. I would think the decrease in beam and the increase in waterline length might account for the the majority of the improvement-- V bottom, very little.

 

[tx river rat]

Jd
Couple questions ,
what is the length at the 2 inch water line of your two boats
and the widest point at a 2 inch water line.
Ron

 

[seedtick]

i've purposely stayed out of this because i truly don't understand how graphite filled epoxy has less coefficient of friction than epoxy especially if the graphite doesn't come off on your hand

if your hand isn't black, then you're rubbing epoxy

but that is my opinion, but i still can't discount the empirical results than many folks have of reduced friction with a graphite/epoxy coating

this got me to thinking of some past work i did with filled coating systems...

in some instances, a filler in a coating acts to change the surface tension and allows the coating to smooth out better as it dries- this is at a microscopic level so you really can't feel or see the difference, but it is there and would make a difference by reducing friction

another thing that might be happening is, since graphite can't be wet very well - kind of like a tefllon coating (that's the reason teflon is non-stick) - maybe it improves the non-wettability of epoxy and thus makes it a "slicker" coating

( Seedtick , appreciate the impute as a person who has not posted anything about this , Now lets consider the subject matter about it dropped...since it has been beaten to death ..repeatedly.. Chuck )