Started the Sasquatch 14 x 30 build.

[coogzilla]

So those "microballoon" things are a good deal to use?
Are they a wierd color, or just plain? Kinda interesting they
makes little glass bubles to put in poxy. A neat idea I suppose.

Tell us more, Chuck. Coogs

 

[oldsparkey]

I have never used the Microballoons but I do use the Glass bubbles. Matt said the Baloons make a purple color , no idea about that from me since I have never used them but I would trust Matt on that.

You know what it is like to sand a fillet with nothing but wood flour in it .... &%#$&*!!!!! , OK .. Stop cussing. :lol:

If you mix the glass bubbles with the wood flour then the sanding is cut in half , or more if you use more glass bubbles and less wood flour. They do tend to dilute the color of the wood flour since they are white.

There is another upside to using them ... Wood flour absorbs the epoxy so you use more to make the mix , the glass bubbles do not absorb any epoxy so it lets you have more for your money ... more bang for your buck.

I can't believe no one has used them , except for me. :?

Chuck.

 

[JEM]

They are hollow so when you sand them, you will potentially leave an open "cell".

But a coat of epoxy over it resolves that. If you're painting your hull (or part of it for like an accented trim) you don't want to paint directly on areas of glass bubbles that were sanded. A coat of epoxy over it first to ensure moisture is kept out.

Other than that, sounds like a reasonable idea. I might give them a try on my next build.

Some good info here: http://www.shopmaninc.com/fillers.html

 

[oldsparkey]

I always cover them with some epoxy and a layer of fiberglass. They are used , by me , as a filler in the fillets which are always covered with one or two layers of epoxy , if not some fiberglass.

Chuck

 

[dangermouse01]

I've never worked with the glass bubble before. Do you have a WAG on about how much lighter epoxy would be with them added?

Jack;
Just did some quick weighing with the digital scale. Took a 1/3 cup measuring cup and zeroed out the scale with it on. Scooped the cup full of wood flour leveled it of with a knife across the top. Weighed it and it came in at .41 oz. Did the same with micro balloons (I dont have any of the glass bubbles) and it weighed in at about .21 oz.

This below is from the MAS website.

Phenolic Micro Balloons (organic phenolic hollow spheres)
For use when low density, light weight sandable paint-ready surfaces are required, i.e. when fairing.

Wood Flour
For use when a hard solid for filling and filleting is required.

DM
mike

 

[coogzilla]

Then them glass bubbles sound pretty good.
Matt's link has some good prices. The wood flour poxy sets up
like concreat and sanding is Oh Shure, just put more on to cover
it up. I guess some of us don't do really neat work.

There's exceptions. Hairymick's boats are very good looking.
Chuck's canoe is lookin pretty darn good too.

 

[JEM]

I've never worked with the glass bubble before. Do you have a WAG on about how much lighter epoxy would be with them added?

Jack;
Just did some quick weighing with the digital scale. Took a 1/3 cup measuring cup and zeroed out the scale with it on. Scooped the cup full of wood flour leveled it of with a knife across the top. Weighed it and it came in at .41 oz. Did the same with micro balloons (I dont have any of the glass bubbles) and it weighed in at about .21 oz.

This below is from the MAS website.

Phenolic Micro Balloons (organic phenolic hollow spheres)
For use when low density, light weight sandable paint-ready surfaces are required, i.e. when fairing.

Wood Flour
For use when a hard solid for filling and filleting is required.

DM
mike

Mike,

I believe the glass bubbles are different than the micro balloons.

I forgot mention, I've mixed micro balloons and mahogany woodflour before and came up with a pretty light weight, and intensely dark brown color. If someone was using light color ply and was careful with their filets, it would make for a stunning looking boat!

 

[Kayak Jack]

Mike, thanks for the weight info. I'm beginning to get a bit mixed up here. I understand that hollow balloons or spheres, will get sanded off leaving some open spheres. So, a light coat of (thinned?) epoxy or varnish over the sanded balloons would be appropriate.

When glassed over, that would take care of the cover coat.

Are there solid glass spheres? If so, would one expect them to sand out smooth or bumpy?

 

[Jimmy W]

I just weighed one cup of the glass micro-spheres and they were 34.3 grams or 1.2 oz. I used them for the end pours of my pirogue. I wanted the fillets to blend with the wood, so I didn't use them there.
These bubbles are microscopic in size and in use, they are embedded in epoxy. I don't believe that sanding them is going to leave any pores where water could get into the fillet. Also if you are glassing the boat or even taping the seams, they will be covered with more epoxy and cloth.

Jimmy

 

[JEM]

Jimmy is right in that chances are moisture wouldn't get in any pit or pour and get beyond anything else.

But, I've talked and heard from pros who have had problems with the sanded micro balloons if they weren't coated. The problem was cosmetic and didn't show up until after the finish paint coats were applied.

So like the other precautions we take in building, this would be a wise and easy one to take as well.

And like stated a couple times, the sanded bubble would likely be coated/covered anyway. It's just something to be aware of.

 

[Zeb]

Hiya fellas
I used a blend from U.K.epoxy which is good swag,sort of the same as Chuck is making Himself
Miles easier to sand

Lightweight fairing and filleting blend
A combination of Micro-Balloons, and other fillers it is light in weight. It is approximately half the weight of the high density fillers and is easy to sand. Ideal for fillets in lightweight boats and none structural fillets in larger craft, it can also be used to enlarge the radius of high density fillets giving both the strength of a high density fillet and a larger radius for easier glass tape application

 

[Paddlin'Gator]

In building larger fiberglass Airex composite hulls we used to make our own fairing compound with phenolic micro balloons and polyester resin until glass bubbles (fumed silica) became available. We switched to glass bubbles and then to vinylester resin instead of polyester. This was for application over polyester or vinylester laminates, not wood. Later our Airex and Corecell supplier developed ready-made fairing compound (also containing glass bubbles) that came in pales like drywall mud and was activated like Bondo. After all the sanding for fairing, we sprayed on two or three epoxy primers to prep for the final finish coat, usually Awlgrip, a catalyzed urethane paint. These boats then spent their lives in salt water. We never experienced a problem with the bubbles provided the mixture was adequately catalyzed.

Of course, we always used epoxy and glass bubbles for making thick glue or putty for use on wood and usually precoated the wood with unthickened epoxy just before applying the mixture.

As someone already said, be sure to use a very good dust mask when mixing or sanding the glass bubbles. The stuff is incredibly light and floats in the air. BAD STUFF TO BREATH IN!

 

[oldsparkey]

As someone already said, be sure to use a very good dust mask when mixing or sanding the glass bubbles. The stuff is incredibly light and floats in the air. BAD STUFF TO BREATH IN!

That was me , I was wishing someone would bring that back or repeat it. Those things just float off into the air with the slightest effort. Being microscopic you would not know you are inhaling them so use plenty of caution and don't get in a hurry when mixing them.
That is why I mix them in the resin before the hardener goes in , when they are mixed in then you can mix it like you would with wood flour.

Chuck.

 

[dangermouse01]

Heres a link to something I found on the System 3 website.

http://www.plasticareinc.com/SystemThree_Fillers.htm

Gives good descriptions and uses for, wood flour, fumed silica (cab-o-sil), phenolic microballoons, quartz microspheres, graphite powder and more.

DM
mike

 

[Kayak Jack]

Let me pose a dumb question. First, let me set a scenario.

When barbers trim hair, fine clippings float all around. They breathe in these clippings and can get lung cancer from them just like with asbestos or fiber glass. There is, however, a very simple preventive step. Simply mist the hair BEFORE cutting, and it no longer floats. Wet hair doesn't blow away in light breezes.

My question now is, with what kind of a liquid could these balloons be wetted to prevent floating, and still mix with epoxy?

 

[oldsparkey]

My question now is, with what kind of a liquid could these balloons be wetted to prevent floating, and still mix with epoxy?

Let me understand this , you want to wet out GLASS....... I would say olive Oil. :lol:

OK.. Geting Serious.....DON'T USE OIL.......

You wet the Glass Bubbles with the epoxy resin as you mix them , it would not be beneficial to wet them with anything else if you want the fillet to work. It is nothing more then a simple step of being slow , gentile and not a Bull in a China Shop when mixing them.

You do the same thing with the graphite powder and even wood flour. This is not rocket science .... just building a boat for your enjoyment. Only this crew can take something simple and make it confusing , hard and more involved then it really is. You should know by now that if I can use them then they have to be simple to work with. :roll:

Trust me ... The Glass Bubbles are easy to work with and all you have to do is think and be careful , more careful then normally.
Never have used the Ballons but they do sound interesting. ( I wounder if they come in assorted colors like the ones at the circus.) :lol:

Chuck.
HINT..... Don't stand in front of a fan when you are mixing them with the epoxy , they float on it till it is mixed together. :wink:

 

[Kayak Jack]

Chuck, thanks. Now that you have stated the obvious, you and I can both stand back and maybe someone will enlighten us about making a simple slurry of these so they don't blow away.

Again, thanks.

Now, I hope a useful answer will be generated.

 

[JEM]

Jack, the hair cut analogy doesn't seem to apply.... unless you're wet sanding the cured epoxy-glass bubbles fillet.


Basics:

1) Cover any post-cured sanded glass bubbles with at least a coat of epoxy before trying to paint or varnish it.

2) Where some sort of dust mast and work in a well ventilated area when sanding.

3) Don't pee into the wind.

 

[oldsparkey]

Chuck, thanks. Now that you have stated the obvious, you and I can both stand back and maybe someone will enlighten us about making a simple slurry of these so they don't blow away.

Again, thanks.

Now, I hope a useful answer will be generated.

Jack...

OK , since I have had my fun .... (It is a slow day around here , rain all day).

I'm looking forward to any answer , providing it works but I can't , for the life of me , see where there is one. Besides the way I mix them and then use a little wood flour to thicken the batch.

These are Glass and when mixed with the resin and then the hardener you sure don't want to dilute or contaminate the mix , if anything you want it thick (sort of like not quite runny "P"Nut butter ) to do the fillets with. That's the reason for a little wood flour as stated above. Besides , as I stated , the wood flour adds a little color to the glass bubbles , they are white.

An interesting thought , since they are Glass then they are suspended in the epoxy and not really stuck to it. It would take a microscope to find out but it makes sense. Heck.... All I know is I sure like them when filleting a boat , they stretch out the epoxy mix and sure make things easier.

Plus as I said , when working with them , wear a mask and don't try mixing them in any moving air , they will not stay in the container and stir them in really , really SLOWLEY. To hard of fast then that light colored mist coming off the container is not smoke or a vapor , It's the bubbles.

These are not the bubbles you make when sitting in the bathtub after having a couple of beers and hard cooked eggs , or the ones you make with a loop and some soapy water , they are more like the smoke from a tobacco product , MICROSCOPIC.
Only way to know what we have been saying is to actually work with them , then you would know. Build a Boat and try them , you will like them.

Chuck.

 

[Paddlin'Gator]

Yep, the glass bubbles are bad enough, but cab-o-sil is even worse about floating in the air. Putty made of epoxy and cab-o-sil is very hard, but a little of it mixed in to make glue with the consistency of vaseline is nice to work with. It doesn't sag and helps fill voids if the parts don't mate perfectly.