FlaMike's Pirogue Build!

[FlaMike]

For the benefit of anyone who hasn't built on of these yet, I've discovered several "new" mistakes that can be easily made. At least, they were easy for me!

Since that one failure of a FG tape backed butt joint, I've decided to do two things differently in any future construction.

1. Rather than simply trust pumps, I now measure both the resin and hardener in separate graduated container, and sit them side-by-side before mixing them together. If one (the resin) doesn't look to be twice the volume of the other (hardener,) back up and start that process over!

2. Although it probably isn't necessary, I'll use a 6 inch wide piece of FG cloth, instead of the 4 inch tape, for making those butt joints.

NEW mistakes discovered today:

Remember to bevel the frame sides before you assemble the frames! It's a lot easier that way. The side bevel can be done after the fact, and that is a common practice by many builders. But when the hull shape is as predictable as Uncle John's designs, it just makes sense to use the info in the plans and make the frames the easy way.

I had to use a pair of 8 ft long pieces to make each of the rub rails. That scarf joint was easy to make and tested out OK. Since I had several pieces of wood laying about that was the right width and thickness, I was able to make both rub rails quite quickly.

Too quickly to notice that one was actually 3 feet shorter than the other!

Seems I forgot that old saying, "Measure twice, cut once."

Not a big deal, it just throws my timing further off. I have enough stock to make the other long rub rail, and the first "shorty" will be perfect for the "in-whale." That inner rail won't go full-length, as I plan on decking over the first foot or so on both ends, to make a little cubby for little things that really shouldn't get wet.

If/when I discover any more "learning opportunities like these, I'll be sure to post them.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Kayak Jack]

Matt suggested a good way to measure epoxy; I now use it. Get a gaggle of the clear, plastic glasses used for highballs, say 6oz.

Set one of them inside another. Now, into the INSIDE glass, pour 1/2 oz of water; and mark the level on the OUTSIDE glass. Make further marks at 1 oz, 2 oz, 3oz, 4oz, 5oz, & 6oz on the OUTSIDE glass.

Keep the outside glass clean by using a new inside glass when you mix epoxy.

Using a third glass, carefully add single malt to the level of about 2 oz. S-l-o-w-l-y sip and enjoy. AAHHhhhh! Now, isn't that a LOT better?

 

[cctyer]

ARRRHH!!! Jack I get what ya mean now. A little of The Macallen and all is well. I like yer thinkin there matey. Perhaps a #4 cuban Monticristo to go with that sir! Arrrhhh!! :wink:

 

[FlaMike]

I just knew I was missing a key ingredient! :lol:

Since Thursday is the last of my days off and I have to go back on a night schedule Friday, Sat., and Sun., I usually stay up rather late on Thursdays so I can get some sleep in Friday during the day.

Last night, I joined the pieces to make the other rub rail and in-whale, and then put all five ribs in place (with screws, no glue,) for a test fit and clamped the rub rails in place while I was at it.

The boat is now sitting on a pair of saw horses, looking rather "boat-like." At least now I can see some tangible results.

I'll post more pictures when I can, but until Monday, I'm back on my 7 pm to 7 am thing.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Kayak Jack]

The alcohol ion is a handy critter - when kept under control. Helluva beast when not.

 

[FlaMike]

I'm really looking forward to Monday, so I can get back to building on the boat! (Notice how I artfully avoided using that "w*rk" word there!"

Haven't been fishing since I started this project, and that's driving me nutz! I almost decided to take a day away from the build, just to go wet some flies, but figured I'd be better off getting it done, so I can use it to do some serious fishing.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[hairymick]

Mate,

BEFORE you graphite the bottom, take her fishing a couple of times.

I don't fly fish (yet) but I work hard baits along the banks working structure etc. To this end, I point the boat roughly in the direction of where I want to cast and drift along the banks chucking at whatever seems likely.

I have found a full length keel on the bottom helps me with this, It minimises wind drift and helps to keep the boat pointed where I want it.

My keel is typically 1 1/2" by 1/2" kaying flat on the bottom. It also acts as a rubbing strip. It is much easier to put on BEFORE you graphite.

If you decide you are happier with it with just the flat bottom, It is no big deal to graphite whenever you like. (like a rainy weekend etc.

 

[FlaMike]

Mick,

The advice you just gave is exactly what Uncle John advised when I asked him about a keel and maybe internal stringers. He told me to build it without them, and then give it a try. Since I need to wait a couple of weeks before the paint & varnish phase, I'll have plenty of time to decide if I really need to add either of those.

Considering the sources of the advice, I'm guessing it's pretty good!

You mentioned graphite. I'm not sure I'm going to do that, but if I do, any idea how much graphite it will take to do the bottom of an UJ 15'8" Pirogue with a 32" wide bottom? And can it be done with less than 3 coats?

I do plan on painting the hull a dark green, and the inside probably some kind of light yellow, darkened a bit with maybe a touch of brown mixed in. (I know what that color is supposed to look like, I'm just having trouble describing it very well.) A graphite-black bottom would look OK with that, I'm just not convinced I'll really need it.

As for my record-breaking sloooooowwww build, I have made some progress!

I had the frames installed, but held in place with some screws, not glued. In the first picture, the frames have been epoxied in place, the rub rails too, and the boat turned over so I could prepare it for the bottom attachment.

And finally, I cut the bottom piece down to size, buttered everything up with epoxy, and now it's "clamped" into place!

Slow, but not too bad for a teeny little work space. Tomorrow, I plan on doing some more sanding and turning it over so I can get the fillets and glass taping done. I'll also apply the first coat of epoxy on the inside, as well. If I get far enough along and the epoxy cures fast enough, I may see about getting the "in-whales" done. Might be kind of tricky, the clamps I have probably don't open wide enough for the job. I'll come up with something. . .

If I can't get the in-whales started, I'll begin building a pair of those folding boat seats instead.

Either way, I plan on being busy! 8)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[hairymick]

G'day Mike, thanks for the compliment mate. if anybody can learn from the mistakes i have made. it is a bonus for me.

Your boat is coming along beautifully mate.

Re the graphite, 3 coats at a minimum. By the time you are ready to graphite the bottom, it will take about 100ml of resin & graphite mix for each coat. At about a 20 percent ratio, graphite to resin, you will need about 60ml of graphite by volume. This equates to about 3 and a bit thimbles full. (a thimble being about 20ml)

I could only buy my graphite in a small can about the size to hold about a half pint of water. I have used it on three boats now and still have over half of it left. 8)

I would strongly recommend you use the graphite on the bottom. It will save a lot of scratches. I just drag my boats down the sand sometimes. With the graphite on the bottom, they are not even marked. When it does start to get a bit thin - easy - a couple more coats of black - as good as new. 8)

And the plastic boat owners brag about how tough THEIR boats are. If only they knew.

 

[FlaMike]

OK, Mick! You've made another "black-bottom convert!" :lol:

I'd read what quite a few others said about it, your post cinched it up. All said and done, all the blame falls on me. But if it comes out good, I'll owe it all to you guys!

Morning rain kept me from moving the build outside once again, but it least it kept the heat down in the garage. There was one "Oh Sh*t!" moment, when I pushed the router too hard trimming the bottom with a round-off bit, and the ply started smoking. . . Even had a few glowing specks in there. (I can be kind of hard on tools, by the way.)

But it looks even more like a Pirogue than it did yesterday!

Got to say I felt a lot better when I removed all the screws holding the rub rails in place and the rail didn't spring back to it's former straight shape. I'll have to do a little more shaping of the bottom at the stem and stern, and fair the rub rails in at both ends as well.

Here's a look towards the bow. (Or is it the stern?)

But now, I'm going back out there to mix up some epoxy & wood flour "peanut butter" and get the fillets done, so I can glass tape the inside seams. Some of that mix will go towards filling in all those screw holes on the inside, where I ran them through into the rub rail.

I guess I'll order up some graphite from Raka, so I'll have it when the time comes to use it. Since I'll be painting the hull sides dark green, I guess I need to pick a place for the water line and allow for the 1/8" overlap of each epoxy-graphite coat and run my masking tape there. Wouldn't do to run that black mixture on top of the paint, I don't suppose.

Got to get back at ti!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[cctyer]

Mike she's looking good. I can't wait to see how much she weighs and if you think the extra ribs are worth it. Do you plan to stand up in her to cast your fly rod? I don't think I'm gonna try it just yet ,I am just getting used to sitting in her. Either way it's gonna be a sweet boat!

I think I'll go paddle mine for awhile! 8)

Peace,

Chad

 

[aeromotorwindmill]

looking good

nice work, looking forward to seeing it complete

 

[FlaMike]

Weirdness! :shock:

Couldn't get the Forum's home page to open, "waiting for reply" message, then "IE could not open the page. . . "

In frustration, I ran a Google search, loaded a "cached page," and clicked on a link to a post on that, and BAM! I'm in!

Now, it seems to work just fine.

looking forward to seeing it complete

Thanks, aeromotorwindmill ! (Me too!)

Chad,

No idea what it will weigh in the end, but I can tell you now, it's getting heavy. OK, curiosity got the best of me and I just went out to the garage with a bathroom scale. Weighed me, then me and the boat, which took a certain amount of acrobatics, and found out the boat currently weighs in at 64 pounds, already.

64 pounds?!!!?!!!?

Does that sound right? This is without the epoxy-glass coat, a couple of extra ribs, and a rub rail. Still to come, an inner rail (in-whale?) a little bit of decking fore and aft, glass on the bottom, epoxy saturation inside, then paint and a graphite bottom, plus a couple of those folding boat seats. . . . Lordy!

Of course, it is 1/4" ply, not 1/8" as many have used. And the LOA is 15'10", 30" across the bottom, 36 1/2" max. beam @ top of sides.

But still. . . I'm thinking even at the current weight, it still should finish out under 80 pounds. A rack for my pickup is already in the works, looks like I'll re-work the dolly I was using on the old boat and take it along too.

Almost forgot! By all means, YES, I do intend to fly fish and I will be standing while doing so. You should have seen me polling that 12 ft. aluminium boat with the round bottom, while standing on the rear seat.

I may be short on common sense, but a good sense of balance I've got! :lol:

To be honest, I doubt I'll be able to tell you if the extra frames were worth it, or not. I've got nothing to compare it to. Uncle John was rather firm about using 4 frames to widen the hull, and he did say to "trust the eye" and see if a 5th frame, right in the center, would be needed or not.

When I spread the two middle ribs apart far enough to get the extra width I wanted, they sure seemed to be quite far apart. My "trusted eye" said "It needs it." So I built it.

In the original design, with only 3 frames, the middle frame sat right on the butt joint of the bottom panel. In my Pirogue with 5 frames, I also have the center frame sitting on that joint. I rather like the way that worked out, as I tend to see that frame as being something of a "back plate" on the widest epoxy taped butt joint in the hull. A welcome added benefit when you have an odd number of frames.

Oh well, maybe I'll go back out to the garage and see about adding more weight to the boat! Turns out I get more done at night, since it's a lot cooler in there. During the day, It's a lot like working in an oven. Just finished the fillets on the inside, and filled all the screw holes with epoxy/wood flour putty. Some touch-up sanding and then it's ready for the glass tape and the first coat of epoxy on the inside.

At some point, I'll have to install that in-whale and decide just how much of a deck I want on each end. I think it does need a little, but too much and it becomes a Kayak (kind of.) Maybe I'll post a side-view and get some opinions on that. Right now, I'm kind of leaning towards decking over from the last frame to the stern post, and from the first frame to the stem post.

That space is rather narrow, no one is going to wander in there. . . And it would make a nice little, out-of-the-weather cubby, a dry-storage space of sorts. (Thinking as I type.)

I do appreciate everyone looking in on me as I build. Nice to know there's "back-up" available if I get stuck on something. (Like, indecision.)

**** Just came back to do a simple edit, and added a couple of paragraphs! :lol: ****

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[cctyer]

Mike while the boat is gaining weght you are most certainly gaining stability. There always seems to be a trade off. Mine at 15' long and 3 ribs is only 25" wide at the bottom and 30" at the top center, and weighs about 45-46 pounds using 1/4 inch ply. I am wishing I had a little more beam top and bottom now that I have paddled the boat.
When I weighed mine I put the bathroom scale in the driveway and stood the boat on end with a towel under the nose then carefully lifted it onto the scale and set it on by itself on end. It's probably not that accurate but close enough.

keep up the good work,

Chad

 

[oldsparkey]

Mike...

You are making the King Size version of the pirogue so it will weigh more then a normal one but you will have more stability. I would venture a guess and say you are making 1 and 1/2 of them. That should make the weight come out around 80 pounds or in that area.
Looking at the pictures of your pirogue it sure looks long and wide , I guess it is the five ribs that makes it look so long , I am use to seeing three ribs.

I am thinking you will be adding another 20 pounds with all of the stuff that has to be done, with some luck it might be 15 pounds depending on the size of the decks you put on it.

Your pirogue should end up weighing the same as a fiberglass canoe of the same length but you will have a lot better boat for a lot less cash. I am basing that on the 36 1/2 beam because that is what standard canoes have.

The forum has been dragging it's heals a couple of times and hard to get into , that is the server who we are with , Neil is working on the problem and we might end up switching servers to stop all that fun.

Chuck.

 

[FlaMike]

It's raining right now, and is likely to be doing so, off and on, all day. But for me, that's good news. That means the temperature in the garage will be "livable" all day. And being Thursday, I normally stay up all night until about 7 am on Friday, so I can sleep during the day and be ready for the first of my three 12 hour night shifts.

This gives me effectively 2 full days to spend on the boat. And that means that I should be able to get it on the water during my next set of days off, which will be next Monday through Thursday. I work better with a goal like that. Of course, I've thought I'd be done with it sooner and was wrong. But it really doesn't matter, as these goals I set for myself serve to motivate me, they are certainly not carved into stone.

I do have a feeling that this particular deadline is one I'm going to be able to make.

As for the fly fishing, I've got no problem doing that sitting in a comfortable seat, sitting down low while fishing for freshwater pan fish and bass. But when it comes to salt water, I sight fish. Trout, redfish, and snook fishing that way is more like hunting on the move than anything else. For this, I need to be standing in order do see my prey. That's why I'll be building one of Uncle John's Jon boats, modified with a casting deck forward instead of seats, and a small polling platform over the motor. I may well even put a small, elevated casting platform on the bow.

But I can tell you right now that building the Jon boat turned flats fishing boat will not happen as soon as I first thought! The more I thing about the possibilities the Pirogue presents, the more sure I am that I'll be spending quite a bit of time out on the water with it.

For the Jon Boat build, I'll first put up a large, carport-sized canopy out back so I won't have to contend with the heat of the garage. But, that's for another time. Right now, I'm off to the garage, to get started again.

Funny thing, "talking" about all this, even with people I have never met and likely won't, does make the whole thing easier. You guys are great!

Most of the people I know and work with are not the type to undertake such a project. They've no idea what it's like, what's involved, and will never know the satisfaction of having done it. They do not understand what motivates me, and I can only feel sorry for them.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

Funny thing, "talking" about all this, even with people I have never met and likely won't, does make the whole thing easier. You guys are great!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Mike...

I really don't want to tell you this and cause you to have nightmares , unnecessary stress , worries , or ulcers.

BUT ... it is my pleasure to inform you that you might be wrong and actually meet on of us or more at sometime down the river. We have a good size group on here from Florida and some of the out of state Guy's and Gal's do come down here to paddle and camp or just to goof off on one of our rivers.

It is a small world that we live in and it offers a lot of surprises , especially when you have a wood boat on the vehicle , or on a trailer behind it or just paddling down a river while minding your own business and someone sees it. Even at a restaurant with the boat in plain sight , you will not be safe anywhere.

I was paddling one river here in Florida and here comes another wood boat , we meet and started talking , next thing I know this person (name withheld to protect the innocent ) is telling me about southernpaddler and that I should join them since I like wood boats.

I handed him one of my cards and told him I was sort of familure with that web site. We had a good laugh and a really nice day. You do meet the nicest people in hand crafted wood boats.

So this is just a warning that one day someone will walk up and say , nice boat ... Where did you purchase it... That person might be me or one of us...Ya never know. :wink:

Chuck

 

[cctyer]

How right you are there Chuck. I stoped at the store down the street from my house on the very first outing saturday to check the straps on the rack and I could not even make it back in the car before a gentelman pulls up and says" that's a nice boat where did you get it"? I told him I made it and he said "wow that's nice". It had not been in the water yet and bye the time I got to the lake the questions came fast and furious. I told one guy who said man you can sell those for like a 1,000 dollars a piece that I did it for the enjoyment and did not want to make it like that four letter word W%#k we can't say! I also made it a point to tell him about this website and Uncle John's so he could look into it himself.

If nothing else I got me on helluva conversation starter! :lol:

 

[FlaMike]

So then. . . If I'm out with the boat and half-crazed looking sort with a smile on his face comes up to me. . . I shouldn't shoot him? :?

Well, maybe I can hold off until his intentions a clear. :lol:

Had to make a run to the Home Despot, needed some larger clamps for that inner rail and picked up what I need to make the truck rack. Also got some red oak for the seat bases, had to have that as it will match the rails and the seat slats.

Other thing I went for was a half-sheet of ply for the decking fore & aft, and I ran across some small sheets of Luan. Picked up a couple of those, as they both had one side that looked near perfect.

When I left the house, it was with the intent of picking up about $50 worth of stuff. I ran a little over-budget, more like $135. That's why the wife doesn't like it much when I go "shopping." 8)

Back at it!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

So then. . . If I'm out with the boat and half-crazed looking sort with a smile on his face comes up to me. . . I shouldn't shoot him? :?

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

I would hold off on the shooting , till you know his intentions , who knows he might have a box of termites in his pocket and if he does then that would be grounds for a shooting. Give the po guy or gal a break till ya know fer sure.

If he has a "T" shirt or cap on that says southernpaddler .... Start shooting as soon as you see it , ( those are the die hard mentally unbalanced members) that would be after your boat and it just might be me. :lol:

Chuck.