Nailed the bottom on this morning. Just regular old Titebond II. So, beng a hybrid build, the stems and about 3" of the bottom is classic stitch and glue construction. The midddle 90% of the boat is classic chine log construction. The transition between the two is going to take a bit of fiddling and epoxy putty.
New pirogue .....hybrid build
- Thread starter jdupre'
- Start date
Looking good. I like the chine logs. What angle did you use? Did you have to plane much off near the ends?
I don't think you will have much trouble making the epoxy stems match up to the logs.. Some folks make a dam and then pour the epoxy behind it. Thickened epoxy spread into the space may be easier to get the finished look you want. I really don't do much epoxy work so pay no attention to me.
I don't think you will have much trouble making the epoxy stems match up to the logs.. Some folks make a dam and then pour the epoxy behind it. Thickened epoxy spread into the space may be easier to get the finished look you want. I really don't do much epoxy work so pay no attention to me.
You're asking ME what angle?!! It was 26.3257 degrees.......give or take a 5 degrees. 
I gave it enough so it sheds water.
The chines are another subject. I thought it might be easier to end them basically to a point. Didn't work out that way. You actually have 3 seperate angles that have to coincide. The angle of the bow, the flair angle of the sides and the angle where the two chines meet together. All that happens in a 3" space exactly where the straight line of the ply bottom starts to curve up into the stems. Thank goodness for epoxy putty. Piss poor job on my part. It MAY have been easier to make them butt up a stem, but the stem would have to be an ever changing angle from top to bottom, so maybe trading one problem for another.
Anyway, the shape, flair, the swoop of the shear line, and the fit of the chines in the middle 14 foot of the boat are all like I envisioned. Can't ask for more than that.
I gave it enough so it sheds water. The chines are another subject. I thought it might be easier to end them basically to a point. Didn't work out that way. You actually have 3 seperate angles that have to coincide. The angle of the bow, the flair angle of the sides and the angle where the two chines meet together. All that happens in a 3" space exactly where the straight line of the ply bottom starts to curve up into the stems. Thank goodness for epoxy putty. Piss poor job on my part. It MAY have been easier to make them butt up a stem, but the stem would have to be an ever changing angle from top to bottom, so maybe trading one problem for another.
Anyway, the shape, flair, the swoop of the shear line, and the fit of the chines in the middle 14 foot of the boat are all like I envisioned. Can't ask for more than that.
Stems look nice’n pointy. Gobbing in thickened epoxy will overcome any errors of artistry in those little sticks you run along the floorboards. The end pour on my first boat was in behind a dam made of cardboaed and maskkng tape. The cardboard is still a permanent piece of that boat - wherever that boat is.
So you set your table saw at "26.3257......give or take 5 degrees". I don't think my saw has that setting.
I know the actual degrees for your build can vary as long as it sheds water and looks close to your "by eye" plans. My settings are usually a little more specific because I know what they need to be to give me the look I like and to meet my function goals. That does not mean they don't end up with some "give or take degrees". We both end up in the same place. The boat we want.
When we step out into uncharted waters (hybrid build) the normal way to build usually go out the window. Fitting the chine logs together probably would have been easier if you were using a wooden stem piece, BUT making that piece would be tricky because of complicated angles. The stem sort of becomes part of the bottom for 2" or 3". Using the standard building procedure of attaching the stem piece to the sides first and then putting them together will not work well because you don't know what those degrees are(no written plans).
Attaching the chine logs and stem pieces to the floor and then attaching the sides may? have worked a little easier because the logs and stems could have been planed and fitted to the sides as they were attached. There are some "BUTS" with this but I'm tired of typing.
I think your plan to do epoxy is the best solution. No plans and no need to know angles.
I don't think my saw has that setting.I know the actual degrees for your build can vary as long as it sheds water and looks close to your "by eye" plans. My settings are usually a little more specific because I know what they need to be to give me the look I like and to meet my function goals. That does not mean they don't end up with some "give or take degrees". We both end up in the same place. The boat we want.
When we step out into uncharted waters (hybrid build) the normal way to build usually go out the window. Fitting the chine logs together probably would have been easier if you were using a wooden stem piece, BUT making that piece would be tricky because of complicated angles. The stem sort of becomes part of the bottom for 2" or 3". Using the standard building procedure of attaching the stem piece to the sides first and then putting them together will not work well because you don't know what those degrees are(no written plans).
Attaching the chine logs and stem pieces to the floor and then attaching the sides may? have worked a little easier because the logs and stems could have been planed and fitted to the sides as they were attached. There are some "BUTS" with this but I'm tired of typing.
I think your plan to do epoxy is the best solution. No plans and no need to know angles.
This is the area in question. Lots happening in just a few inches. The ply bottom cannot make that curve so it was cut off and faded out to almost nothing. The chines had to have the same procedure done. I may make a small custom wood piece to blend it all together or maybe just put fair it in with some "shmutz".
There is a bunch of good information in this post and replies. Shows how complicated building a simple boat really can be. My first boats were "kits" from a hardware store back in '72 when I first came to Louisiana. Lot's to think about when building "traditional", I need to think more about some of this.
Maybe the most immediately useful idea is the method jdupre' uses to temporary fastens forms in place!
Maybe the most immediately useful idea is the method jdupre' uses to temporary fastens forms in place!
Any chance of a picture of the inside where the chine logs meet the stem. I having a litle problem visualizing that.
Thanks for sharing your build.
Thanks for sharing your build.
No stems on this build. The chines SHOULD have come to a nice point there were the side pieces are epoxied together. I just couldn't get them like I wanted so I filled in with epoxy putty.
The center form is something I learned from my neighbor 47 years ago. There's clearance for the chines and the bottom widith can be adjusted a bit by raising the form up an inch or so. You can increase the flair slightly by adding the appropriate wedges along the clamping surfaces.
The center form is something I learned from my neighbor 47 years ago. There's clearance for the chines and the bottom widith can be adjusted a bit by raising the form up an inch or so. You can increase the flair slightly by adding the appropriate wedges along the clamping surfaces.
One possibility would be to square off the end of the floor and then laminate thin strips forward and over the ends to make a laminated batter board.
If you did not want the work of shaping the wood or there is not enough floor left to cut square, the strips could be attached undersized and then faired with "shmutz".
You are covering it with fiberglass and paint?
If you did not want the work of shaping the wood or there is not enough floor left to cut square, the strips could be attached undersized and then faired with "shmutz".
You are covering it with fiberglass and paint?
I'll probably go with the epoxy putty. The thickest spot is right up against the bottom ply. It will thin out until it just melds into the bottom of the stem. No batter board. I actually love the 3d melding of shapes together. That comes much more easily to me than strict angles and lines.
I must challenge myself one day and build a boat with absolutely no rulers or tapes. I really don't care too much about the actual dimensions. If it looks right, it's right. The curve of the stems is an example. I drew a long curve with one sweep of the pencil. I erased a couple of sections of the line and moved them maybe a 1/16" one way or another and Voila!..... the shape of my stems. Pretty much the same with the chines. I felt the strength and the weight of the wood and figured " This would be strong enough to do the job." . These chines were pine. The chines in the green and white pirogue were Western red cedar. They were bigger.......because.
I must challenge myself one day and build a boat with absolutely no rulers or tapes. I really don't care too much about the actual dimensions. If it looks right, it's right. The curve of the stems is an example. I drew a long curve with one sweep of the pencil. I erased a couple of sections of the line and moved them maybe a 1/16" one way or another and Voila!..... the shape of my stems. Pretty much the same with the chines. I felt the strength and the weight of the wood and figured " This would be strong enough to do the job." . These chines were pine. The chines in the green and white pirogue were Western red cedar. They were bigger.......because.
I've come to realize that in boatbuilding, like in many of my other hobbies, there are "number" guys and "feel" guys. I'm definitely a "feel" guy. Many of the "number" guys get a lot of their enjoyment from exacting fit and finish. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Exacting fit and finish is an absolute torture to me. It gives me no pleasure at all to fight to get that last 1% of precision in anything I build. Not saying it's right or the best way, just the best way for me.
It may depend on, or at least be largely affected by, what kinds of things a guy can envision? Joey, I suspect that you can envision things like boats, knives, connecting parts, etc. Shapes and forms become real in your mind easily. Component parts come into view, get tested, and sorted out in your mind. Then made and assembled. You’ve done it with bows, quivers, knives, hammocks, blow guns and darts, boats, etc.
My Dad could design buildings in his mind, set component parts to paper, saw them oit, and assemble them. I can envision mechanical things, JD envisions boats - and fish.
Others imagine words in writing, spoken, sung, etc.
Heckuva group of guys here.
My Dad could design buildings in his mind, set component parts to paper, saw them oit, and assemble them. I can envision mechanical things, JD envisions boats - and fish.
Others imagine words in writing, spoken, sung, etc.
Heckuva group of guys here.
If you laminate strips around the ends the batter board will follow the shape of the stems. It will present the look and shape you wanted. Filling in the "thickest spot" and blending it in to the stems will work and is probably the easiest and best solution, but it will change the stem shape you wanted.
One thing about boat building is every change affects something. Sometimes many things. I did not foresee this problem when we discussed it earlier because you put the bottom on top of the sides. I put the sides on the side of the bottom.
No right or wrong way, but sometimes I see why things are usually done a certain way.
One thing about boat building is every change affects something. Sometimes many things. I did not foresee this problem when we discussed it earlier because you put the bottom on top of the sides. I put the sides on the side of the bottom.
No right or wrong way, but sometimes I see why things are usually done a certain way.
Well, it really won't change the shape I wanted. I had planned on having to blend all surfaces in that area. The stems will gradually meld into somewhat of a small version of a skeg.....maybe 6" long. I've not seen it done anywhere......except in my head.
Laminating strips would be a lot of extra work in my mind. I would have to flatten the nice epoxy bead that is already on most of the stem.
One of a kind builds are not for the faint of heart.
Laminating strips would be a lot of extra work in my mind. I would have to flatten the nice epoxy bead that is already on most of the stem.
One of a kind builds are not for the faint of heart.
Jack, I guess my mind works differently from most. I guess I have the creative gene. Creativity means thinking of or making something that never existed before. I used to do a bit of woodurning. I was showing my wife some things I turned out of red cedar branches. She asked if could make Christmas ornaments. In about 5 seconds, about a dozen different shapes flashed through my mind.
I often run, and rerun, design thoughts around in my head as I’m nodding off to sleep. Sometimes once or twice, other ones for days. Some wallow around, the get rejected. Only to pop up again weeks or months later. There must be a lot of bins and cubbyholes in there. Some are lighted, others are dusty. A few have slideshows or a movie. I don’t seem as adept at making them become real as I used to be.
Bee, no design is final in my head. Everything is subject to change. I knew "about" what I wanted, but that's never exact. When faced with the actual 3d shape, I can usually figure out some kind of solution. Fun stuff!