Marsh Pirogue ? (Keith, Seedtick? Anyone?)

[FlaMike]

Right off the bat, let me tell you all about an OMG! moment I just had. . .

I was looking a a drawing I'd made early on, using some graph paper that I printed up, to see about the amount of freeboard with 10" sides at a 35* angle. I noticed that I had two sides drawn, at different angles. Turns out that even though they looked different, both were 35* angles, one was 35* from vertical, one was 35* from horizontal. Say WHAT?!!? :shock:

I quickly double checked the jig I'd been using even though I was sure it was right, and turns out, it IS right.

But for a couple of minutes there. . . Well, at least now I know for sure that the Doc's repair job on the ticker actually worked!

Jack,

I don't think you were really in too much danger. . .

But, it did get a bit dicey when a few whitecaps were dancing about. Joey and Piper San snickering in the background didn't help any, either.

You gott'a know they'd have some kind of plans on getting their boat back. :wink:

I do appreciate your concern about my recuperation, just so you know, my projected return to work date is the 22 of this month. Hey, wait just a minute! YOU don't have some money riding on this, do you? And if so, can I get in on it?

Joey,

I can see how useful the cardboard pieces could be, and how fast. I'm using the luan on a larger scale, partly to help drill the lessons learned into my own head, and partly because it's easier to get a good picture of. OK, maybe because I'm also suffering from a touch of CABIN FEVER!!! Sorry, I didn't mean to yell, sometimes it just gets away from me. :roll:

I know what you mean about using extreme examples to learn from. After stitching the two side panels together I spread them apart to put the jig in place and saw how the ends lifted. I did play with it a bit and increased the flare and beam up to the point I thought it might break, and it was amazing how much the rocker increased. It would have made a Colorado Drift Boat look like a flat bottom barge.

What my draft paper drawing did show me was that 10" sides, at 35*, would put the top edge of the sides around 7" up from the bottom. So if the bottom was 2 inches (light load,) underwater, that would leave only 5" of freeboard. Could be that I'm going to do a little re-thinking about the side panel dimensions. It would be "back to the old drawing board," except for the most part, I'm not drawing it out.

beekeeper,

That's a great picture! I think I get what you're saying about laying out the parts, and piecing the bottom together to make sure there's room for all the parts on the two sheets of ply. As far as the sides go, I was thinking not just that each side would be made from two parts, but also, those two parts don't really have to be "6ft halves," one could be 7ft, the other "half" could be 5ft, if it would make it easier to get all the pieces to fit (like a puzzle) on the sheets of ply.

Of course, I'll be adding to the lengths of the pieces to make up for the loss in the scarf joints.

Say, any idea if the scarf joint(s) in the bottom, or anywhere else for that matter, will add to the overall stiffness of the part being joined? I ask, kind of hoping to completely avoid adding frames. But I do know that if need be, floor frames can be added after the fact and would not be a problem to have to "live with."

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[beekeeper]

Say, any idea if the scarf joint(s) in the bottom, or anywhere else for that matter, will add to the overall stiffness of the part being joined? I ask, kind of hoping to completely avoid adding frames.

They won't add any strength, but it probably will be strong enough in good plywood. You could add floor ribs latter if the splices seemed weak. If you don't want the ribs you could cheat and epoxy a strip of fiberglass over the splice.

beekeeper

 

[FlaMike]

Well, like I said, I can see retrofitting floor ribs in IF the bottom flexes. But the fg is a step I just don't want to take on this one. Hopefully, it won't come to that. Keep in mind that I've decided the bottom of this one will be only 26 inches wide and I'm still considering going down to 24.

But I did say something in my last post that I almost want to edit out, (but I won't.) It's that remark I made about the freeboard being too low, my current projection calling it about 5" or so.

My only experience with a pirogue is with my UJ's at 15 1/2 feet.

Just what would be a reasonable amount of freeboard for a 12' pirogue, particularly a marsh style?

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[seedtick]

3 or 4 inches of freeboard is plenty as long as you're on flat water. Going out in the surf or paddling with water skiers is a different story

as a kid, i spent time in a small boat that, if you reached down to grab the top rail, your fingers would get wet


just for clarification, 35 degrees for me is 35 degrees from vertical. There's a man in St. Martinville that builds them at 45 degrees

 

[beekeeper]

, but also, those two parts don't really have to be "6ft halves," one could be 7ft, the other "half" could be 5ft,

I would try for 8' and 4'. I think it is better to have the splice near the end, less stress on the joint.

beekeeper

 

[FlaMike]

beekeeper,

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

Now then, there is a reason I didn't post any more pics on my 1/2 scale project today.



And it's all seedtick's fault!



He'd offered to send some of the pictures that were no longer available in an old thread, the one on making a Marsh Pirogue for a Ducks Unlimited raffle. Well, that CD got here today, and it was nearly full of pictures! :lol:

And not just of that one pirogue, either, but pirogues of all shapes, sizes, and building methods.
Wasn't just pirogues, either! There was pics of skiffs, john boats, and all kinds of other stuff, as well. :mrgreen:
Kind of like Christmas in August, or something. . . Did I mention that I kind of liked it?

I've been going all though those pics for most of the day. And I'm going to start back over from the very beginning, right now!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Oyster]

If you think a CD will cause you harm in a good way of course, do not visit his shop. Thats all that I will have to say. :wink:

 

[FlaMike]

If Ii do manage to get up that way one of these days, I'll make sure I start saving up so my wife will be able to afford the deposit Mr. Tick and Friend will make her put down, to ensure she takes me with her when she leaves. 8)

Today, I've been studying a whole BUNCH of pictures, especially some nice side views of both finished marsh pirogues and pictures of the side panels, shown in near perfect profile. I think I've good a pretty good idea on how to shape them so they give the characteristic profile that I'm looking for.

What I'm still having doubts about, even though I've been assured by those who've actually built this style, is getting all the side pieces and bottom parts, out of a pair of 4X8 sheets of plywood!

My back-up plan is to get the ply from a place down in Tampa (I think,) that I don't seem to be able to find right now, but they did clearly state the would sell half sheets. 2 1/2 sheets I know I can fit the parts on.

But if I do have to go to the extra sheet, (half or full,) I wonder if it might make more sense to go from the 12' up to the 14' instead? Just a little heaver, and little more for one person to move around, but still do-able. I dunno.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Kayak Jack]

Spend a buck, buy some graph paper, draw the parts onto a simulated piece of plywood on the graph paper. Move them around until they nest properly.

 

[FlaMike]

Spend a buck? Are you CRAZY? :roll:

Actually I have a graph file I downloaded when I was re-doing the kitchen. Still on my computer, so when I need graph paper, I just print it up!
Before I even buy the ply, I'll make the side panels out of that stack of so-called "doorskin" luan I still have about 10 sheets of. Not sure, maybe 3mm or less? Wait!

OK, I'm back. (Did you miss me?) I found a clear plastic ruler that has both inches and sillymeter markings, and the thin stuff is 3mm. Took another look at the "thick stuff," (6 sheets,) and it looks to be 4.5mm. Unless I use it all up playing with this project, I'll make something out of this pile, once I get rich enough to buy a bunch of fg cloth and epoxy. (It's going to need it, I think.) This one WILL be made with 1/4" marine ply, unless something really stupid happens. Later, I do intend to try working with one of the underlayment plywoods I've been reading up on.

What I was getting at is, I'm going to do what has been suggested earlier in this thread, and make up a pair of full-sized side panels from the thin stuff, and use it to puzzle out the piece placement. (They called it "nesting" I think.)

They also might come in handy making some jigs for pre-bending the chines and shear rails. Might just keep them, in case I need to make a duplicate! (Could happen?)

Still leaning towards staying with the 12' size, a minimal sized pirogue to sort of contrast against my 15'+ UJ boat. But tomorrow I will see if my idea about how to get that side shape right works or not, and I'll post a pic of the results, good, bad, or indifferent.

I figure if I can't share my mistakes, what good is this Forum? :lol:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

Well allRIGHTY then! I asked what good is the Forum if I can't share my mistakes, and I found some for you to enjoy. (I know I did!.)

The rather extreme sharp-pointed bow on the 1/2 scale? Uh. . . Well, it could be because instead of the usual 12" cutback on a 12" wide side panel, this turned out to be just a tad more than that. What I did would amount to more like 16" of cutback! But didn't someone say to go to the extremes to see what a change would do?

Of course, it would be nice if one was aware that this is what they were doing. . . :roll: Time to move on! :lol:

This time, I took care to make sure I got it right and stuck to the scale. And I did get to see the difference, as I took it from one extreme to another. (Sounds just like I meant to do that all along, doesn't?) On one end, I did a scale version of 6" of cutback on 12", as seedtick suggested, and one the other end, I used his method of converting that angle to a curved stem. And I am very happy with the results!

Not only did this take it much closer to the "look" I'm chasing down, but it did so with NO appreciable change in the rocker. This means most likely, the arc in the bottom panel is more-or-less locked in, and won't have to be re-figured because of the change in the stem design.

From above:

Still happy with the shape, and I think I'm seeing what seedtick was saying about how this change would "get you another foot of boat length in the water."
And to see the "6 on 12" stems, one straight and one curved, at the same time, the eye-level side-view:

Have to say, I REALLY like the curved stem! Now then, got some adjustments to make, fixing the stems and all has shorted the model so that what you see in the last 3 pics is a scale 10'6" boat. Since I think I know what changes I need to make in the upper edge of the side panel, this would be a good time to sacrifice a little more of that 3mm sheet and cut out a new set of side panels. Might be able to get that done today, and get some pics posted.

If this works out, then I can use the new side panels to convince myself that I really *can* do this with just 2 sheets of ply and work on nesting the parts for minimum waste. And then I have a number of problems to solve involving fitting all the fiddling parts in there.

Getting there!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Kayak Jack]

Boat's looking more like a boat, and less like a shoe box that got stepped on.

Since you're convalescing, tell your wife the lawn needs to be mowed. (That oughta earn you another month of convalescence!) :wink:

 

[FlaMike]

Since you're convalescing, tell your wife the lawn needs to be mowed.

Jack! Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! She's right there in the next room. She might be listening! :shock:

I kind of wished I'd never made that remark, "I figure if I can't share my mistakes, what good is this Forum?"
Why? I'm glad you asked. The afternoon monsoon quit a little while ago, and I decided I had enough time to draw out the next set of side panels, cut them and stitch them together, maybe even get some pictures posted, IF I hurried.

Yes, that it! That's the plan.

Predictably, when I got in a hurry, I screwed up again. This one wasn't an ordinary screw up, it took quite a bit of thinking to pull off! I had it all carefully laid out in my head, then I guess I must have forgot where I laid my head. . .

Here is what I managed to do: All the lengthwise measurements, meticulously converted to 1/2 scale, were spot on. I applied my theory on how to make the top edge of the side panel take on the look I wanted, then I carefully drew that out. . . And made all the vertical measurements FULL SCALE.

So, if you've ever wondered what a marsh pirogue, 12' long, would look like if you raised the sides to an average of 20 inches, it would look something like this:

A little chubby, don't you think. However, I have seen worse!
The top view:

And of course, this one,

Somehow, not quite what I was going for.

Soooo, I'll pull this one apart and see if I can thin it down a bit, I just know that somewhere down deep in there, there's a pretty little boat, just dyin' to get out!

Maybe tomorrow. . .

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

Yes. . . I can re-cut these sides and fix them. . .
Won't take long. . . Stitch it back together, get a couple of pics. . .
Gettin' kind of late though, but I think if I hurry up just a bit. . .

WHAT THE HECK AM I THINKING'?!?!?!? :|

This is definitely a job for another day.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[seedtick]

don't think of it as a mistake

it's an opportunity to work on the top cuts of the sides and finalize the shape of the finished boat

looking good so far............

 

[FlaMike]

Making all the dumb mistakes hasn't done my confidence much good, but that's kind of why I'm working on the scale and not the full-sized one. As for as the scale goes, I think I got that part right this time. But I may have overdone that rise towards the bow section. I'm not sure I'm happy with that part just yet. Here's what I mean:

If it looks kind of "wavy," it just might be! Seems I'm not that accurate when making long cuts with sweat dripping off my forehead onto my glasses. Makes me tend to rush and that never works out well. Next time, I'll set up a fan and maybe a sweat band will help. Besides, they're fashionable!
Kind of hard to tell, but the rocker is still the same, about an inch (full scale) on either end. hard to see in these pics. I might increase that just slightly on the full-size boat.

And before I take another set of pics, I'll take seedtick's advice and use at least two jigs, in place of the one that's in there now. That will smooth things out a bit.

Sort of a top view:

Took this from ground level. Just didn't feel like trying to balance on that big rock, today. Besides, now when I climb up there, I start noticing the grass is looking kind of deep! (Come in handy, though, if I feel off that darned rock while taking a picture!)

And the eye-level profile:

Still have to think about that hump. Probably go back to the pictures and look them over, try to figure out what it is I like about the profile, and then fix it.

As cheap as that 3mm stuff is, and seeing how I do have a stockpile of it, I suspect that working out the final shape of the side panels will probably be done with a full-sized "model," and then I'll be able to use that as templates to cut the good wood.

I'll be working with the 1/2 scale for a while longer yet. Still some wrinkles to iron out before doing the template version. And then there is still that little job of emptying out the garage so I'll have room to build the darned thing. (Been putting that off for over a year now!)

Prob'bly cut the yard, first! :mrgreen:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[seedtick]

check out the pics, the top edges start curving downward in a fair curve

 

[FlaMike]

I do see what you mean.

Been going over the quite a few of the pics on the CD, and the one you posted above does seem to show it the best. The pics on the CD do lend themselves to enlargement, and that has answered a few questions for me, but posed a couple of new ones, as well. I'll be asking about those, later one.

I see that the hump on my side panel runs to far aft, and somehow it did get it's top edge straightened out. That was not my intention, but it is what I did. Since this correction involves taking wood OFF, it will be easy enough to address. I'll give it a go, probably with a sander and see what happens.

Should be able to post some pics of the results, fairly soon. Unless the monsoon kicks in! I hear the rest of the country is in the middle of a major drought, but here, not so much.

That's IT!!! The RAIN! That's the reason the grass isn't cut yet, it's either too wet to cut from the last rain, or it's just starting to rain. I knew there was a good reason for that. . . :mrgreen:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

And rain, it did! That's pretty much every day now for a couple of weeks.

I did have time to play with the shape a bit. I some work on the hump at the bow. When the panel lays flat, the curve of the top edge is there, but when two sides are flared out, it looks like this:

Personally, I think it did improve a bit. What has also been changed is there are now 3 jigs being used. The two new ones, forward and aft, serve to "enforce" the 35* flare angle further forward and aft. Otherwise, the angle decreases markedly, the further you look from the beam. This increases the internal volume of the boat, but in so doing, it increases the amount of rocker. As of now, the full-scale rocker would be right about 2" at both ends.

But, this is not a problem, partly because I didn't have a fixed amount of rocker firmly in mind, and partly because I did reduce the arc in the bottom edge of the side panel from 3" to 2 1/2". The last version of the scale model had gotten a little "off-scale" due to several changes that resulted in the model getting shorter and shorter. But, the original 3" arc at the original length gave approx. 1" of rocker, so the full scale side panels will have a 3" arc. (Unless I change something else and that throws everything off again.)

From the end:

I'm not sure if you can see it here or not, but the bottom width is definitely carried much further forward and aft with the addition of those two new jigs.
I did notice that the ends when looked at from directly above, are not as "sharp." As a matter of fact, the bow forms a 55* angle, which I think is the same that seedtick got when he took measurements to make the stem of a marsh pirogue. (I recall the picture, just can't recall which pirogue he was building at the time.)

And that eye-level shot again:

I thought it would help if I cropped the picture a bit, but I'm not so sure it did. . . Anyway, I do like the shape a little better, and the over all, long, lean look kind of "works" for me! I kind of contrast against the somewhat "stocky" appearance when looking at it from above.

That's pretty much it for today. I have to look at this some more and think about it. Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, I'm open for it.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

It's been a few days since that last version of the model was done and posted, and I can see what needs to be changed before I'll start a full-scale, for real, build thread. I'm comfortable with making the changes while making the full-scale templates, and those templates will be the ones used to begin the build of my marsh pirogue. Those changes involve smoothing out the hump in the bow, and creating a lesser hump in the stern, to produce a profile more like the plank version in the picture seedtick posted above.

I'm almost convinced I can get both sides out of a single sheet of ply. (Almost.) I'll know to a certainty when I make the full-size templates. It isn't that big a deal, but it would save me from buying that extra half-sheet of ply. I really can't move one part of a side panel to the second sheet, as I'm going with advice given about making the bottom with 3/8" ply, and the sides with 1/4". This should (could? might?) allow me to build this 12 footer without any ribs, including bottom ribs. If the bottom does oil can, I will retro-fit a bottom rib in, I won't be all that stubborn about it.

I know I'll have questions to ask when I start the build, but I think I've already found most of the answers by re-reading both of the marsh pirogue build threads and simply paying attention this time. Also, having the pics seedtick sent on a CD, is also a real help. Most of them are at a high enough resolution that I can view them greatly enlarged. This has helped solve some of the little mysteries I was initially plagued with.

Funny thing, I began by asking "how," but the answers were given in such a way that I was allowed to really learn what I needed to know, mostly by "doing," following the guidance given.

Knowledge through intellect is only partial. It must be completed by knowledge through experience.

For this, I cannot thank you enough.

I'm going to let this thread rest, I think. I've got to get ready for my return to the workplace (on or about the 22 of this month,) I still have to get that darned garage cleaned out so I can start serious building, and I have to locate the rest of the materials I'll need.

And the fun part? I'm already designing the build to follow this one!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL