A New Marsh Pirogue

[islandpiper]

After much head-scratching and deliberation, and not a few meetings with the finance department chair-woman, I have ordered a new Pirogue from KEITH'S PIROGUES in Denham Springs, Louisiana, USA, Earth.

It will be "sort of" patterned after a recent boat by Beekeeper with some mods by Keith and Seedtick. I'm going to leave it up to Keith and Tick to post pics and give you all the specs and construction details. In this one, i'm just an interested bystander with a checkbook.

THANK YOU in advance for the fine, new boat.

piper

(the ball's in your court now Keith...)

 

[seedtick]

This will be a 16 footer made with marine plywood - 1/4" sides and 3/8" bottom- and will be able to carry a dutch oven or two

First step is to lay out the sides and cut them out

scarf the joints, we do both sides together

and glue them up

 

[oldsparkey]

Looking forward to see what is on all of your minds , it will be a good boat since there are several creative minds behind the build of it.
Make sure you show the pictures of the places for the Dutch Oven storage.

Now I will back out and get off this thread so we can have a recorded record of the build for reference.

Chuck...........

 

[islandpiper]

I'm sure i should have been a boatbuilder. When i try to cut a straight line with a hand circular saw it get long curves......and when i try to sand a surface flat with a hand belt sander the edges disappear......just like shown above. Dang, missed my calling. piper

 

[seedtick]

sorry but the barbarians came in for the holidays and i'm a little behind

anyway the next step is to attach the inside chine to the side

prebend the chine so you don't have to fight bending it when it's epoxy coated

nail on one side

and then repeat for the other side, but be sure you make a left side and a right side instead of two left sides

 

[islandpiper]

Even if it doesn't always show, I'm excited as heck about having a boat made by some guys who actually know what the heck they are doing.

piper

 

[seedtick]

Pulled the sides off the pattern and bent them around the jigs

now we get to adjust the jigs to get the final shape of the boat - this is the by hand and by eye part

that's pretty close to what it's supposed to look like, we'll look at it for a couple of days (too cold to glue up anyway) to be sure before making the shape more permanent

 

[gbinga]

She's already a pretty thing.

What kind of rocker are you shooting for?

George

 

[seedtick]

not much for a marsh pirogue, probably about an inch

rocker isn't something we worry a lot about

more rocker gives you the ability to change course quickly, less rocker is better for tracking

trees and other obstacles in the marsh are few and far between so you don't need much rocker

 

[captaindoug]

"How much Rocker" seems to be a common question on alot of these builds. I, for one think rocker is kind a of a moot point. I have paddled and rowed boats with lots of "rocker" (Bayou Skiff)and then the one I built with hardly any, (1 inch in the bow, 1/2 inch in the stern). Like the gentleman said, "rocker makes her turn a little better, (if that is what you need for your use, put it in, if not, leave it out.) Now to my question, Seedtick and Friend Keith, it looks like (and I am trying to scale this from the pics) you have cut the bottom of the marsh pirogue about 6" to 8" at the deepest part of the curve along the sides to control the "rocker". I figure you guys learned that from "been there, done that, but is there a formula say for 14'-0 we do this, 16'-0 we do that? OK, I'll admit, the Scotch (15 yr old, Jack)came in tall glasses tonight, and my point may be lost in translation, but for what it is worth, I love watchin' you fellas build a boat, please continue, at your convenience.....

 

[seedtick]

good eye capt'ndoug

glad you enjoy the build

the arc cut out gets you in the ballpark for the rocker, rocker is controlled not only by the arc, but also by the side flare, length of the boat and width of the boat. With a plywood boat, you can use large breasthooks to spread out the tops of the sides near the ends and also affect rocker.

somewhere in this world, there may exist a mathematical formula that lets you plug in desired rocker, side flare, width and length of the boat and it pops out the cut for the bottom of the sides - but i don't know about it. We learned from the old builders, who already had developed the parameters long before we came along. Plus we have, amazingly, learned a bit on our own

Plywood is easier to work with than planks, because you can crank the side flare in and out to achieve your rocker. For example, if your sides are at 35 degrees and you have too much rocker, lessen the flare to get to your end point. Because of the difference in building techniques and wood stiffness, this is much harder to do with planks.

As you've noticed, we build our boats around a couple of jigs, that way we can move the jigs backward and forward to adjust the width of the boat and the location of the widest point. We can move the jigs up and down to adjust the width of the boat and we can slip in shims to adjust the angle of the sides. Once we like the way the boat looks, we finish the build.

The average paddler probably can't tell the difference in boats with a couple of inches difference in rocker. If having the bow up or down is really giving you some grief, then move stuff around in the boat to chage the trim

 

[gbinga]

Right - I understand how you can manipulate the side flare to change the rocker, and how the shape of the side panels dictate some of it (excellent job describing it, by the way)

I just was curious as to how much rocker you are aiming for.

Looking forward to more pics as you progress. It is a very pretty shape.

George

 

[seedtick]

i must talk too much and not get around to answering the questions

on rocker

up to about 2 inches on marsh style

up to about 4 inches on swamp style

more or less if the customer has a preference, otherwise we stop when we think it looks good

 

[islandpiper]

George in Georgia, come over for Rendezvous, sleep in your tent in my back yard, or in my travel trailer, eat till you pop, listen to all the creative storytelling, take part in the after dinner naps, look at this new boat, carry it down to the swamp and try it, get Keith and Seedtick to autograph their picture for you. March 19, be there or be square. piper

 

[Kayak Jack]

<SNIP> If having the bow up or down is really giving you some grief, then move stuff around in the boat to change the trim

BINGO!! Asymmetrical trim satisfies the designer, but is lost on the water with various trim configurations. What is the difference in these two boats:

Boat "A" Symmetrical rocker (1" fore and 1" aft), sides at bow 1" higher than sides at stern
Boat "B" Rocker symmetrical sides at bow and stern, 1" rocker at stern, none in bow.

The difference is a few pounds moved from here to there in boat "A", and a few pounds move from there to here in boat "B". You, trim both of them to do what you want.

 

[beekeeper]

Scarf joint ?

Does the bottom board extend past the edge of the table? If so how much? Is it sanded flush to the table? Are the other boards stacked equal distance from the end of the bottom board or the edge of the table?

With luan plywood, :roll: the cut has to be precise to the line for the joint to look good. :x Is that critical with good ply?

beekeeper

 

[islandpiper]

Don't know about Keith, but when i do it i put a scrap under the stack and leave it flush to the first one on the bottom. Otherwise, my table gets tapered at the edges. piper

 

[seedtick]

the end of the bottom board overhangs the table edge by just a little bit - we've never actually measured the overhang

if you sand the table, you've gone too far

the other boards are backed up from each other like stair steps. The amount of setback is the desired width of the scarf. For example, if you have 1/4" plywood and want an 8/1 joint then each board is set back 2" from the adjoining board

luan is tricky because the outside ply is more like wallpaper instead of a layer of wood

scarf joints are really not that difficult, you just need to practice on scrap plywood before you tackle your first one with a belt sander

the other good thing is that scarf joints are really strong, we've never broken a scarfed side panel trying to move or position it

 

[islandpiper]

Working very carefully i made them in the last pirogue i made. They were freakin' perfecto! glued, waited, moved the side WITH UTMOST CARE AND CAUTION and broke it anyway, and attributed that to the wallpaper and crap-core factor of the cheap a$$ luan i bought from Lowes. I now butt-join luan. In retrospect I am happy you are making my boat from fir marine grade. I'll be smiling when in a chop two miles from the landing on Lake Verrett. piper

 

[seedtick]

i can't and don't want to touch piper's story

maybe the next book by the son of Moses will wander into that territory.............

anyway one problem with scarf joints is that they can be easily glue starved if overlapped too much

we don't try for a perfect matchup of the edges, but rather keep the edges back (separated) about 1/16 or so, that way you can't squeeze out the glue no matter how much pressure you put on the joint