My friend and I have been working on this (mostly him) and he has finally finished the report. For any of you with age problems (stiff legs, weak backs, etc.) this type of build may be a good solution. I have no monetary interest in this endevor, nor do I claim that it was my idea, the information in the report is for your dicernment. Here's the link: http://mysite.verizon.net/NGC704/herbc/
Update on 18# Pirogue
- Thread starter Phishtech
- Start date
Thanks for this...
Very interesting design. I think I will give it a go myself.
Would it be possible to get a few more measurements?
Very interesting design. I think I will give it a go myself.
Would it be possible to get a few more measurements?
As soon as I finish my JEM TV 15-29 I'm going to start on a 14 ft. version of this light weight craft. I'll either use the JEM Laker 14 or the JEM basic 14' x 29" pirogue as the platform, either one will suit this build. I'm hung up right now due to the cold weather, but should be starting soon, and I'll give a detailed report with lots of pics to help any other would be builders. The builder of the original will be instructing me.
I was thinking about this boat design. It's obviously proven and reliable where he uses it. Were the boat used in lakes or rivers where rocks have sharp or pointy edges, fiberglass reinforcing on both inside and outside of the bottom would be a good thing to have.
Then, you could probably use 1/8" plywood instead of 1/4" and the weight would be very similar. A flat bottomed boat impinged on a pointy rock can be a stubborn thing to get off, and can pretty badly split plywood without reinforcing on it.
Then, you could probably use 1/8" plywood instead of 1/4" and the weight would be very similar. A flat bottomed boat impinged on a pointy rock can be a stubborn thing to get off, and can pretty badly split plywood without reinforcing on it.
Phish
Something to think about in your choice of boats. Most boats are designed with a maximum payload and one that doesnt get talked about much is the minimum payload. This was hammered home to me on my Hot air perow I built . It didnt paddle very well for me but my sil
is a hundred lbs heavier it he does well in that boat. I have to load it before it paddle well for me
The v bottom Laker will be much stiffer across the bottom than a flat bottom perow.
Ron
Something to think about in your choice of boats. Most boats are designed with a maximum payload and one that doesnt get talked about much is the minimum payload. This was hammered home to me on my Hot air perow I built . It didnt paddle very well for me but my sil
is a hundred lbs heavier it he does well in that boat. I have to load it before it paddle well for me
The v bottom Laker will be much stiffer across the bottom than a flat bottom perow.
Ron
tx river rat said:
Hey, Ron...yeah, I figger I'll use the V bottom even if I go with the basic pirogue platform. The old man in his 14'x30" pirogue had a flat bottom, he only weighs in about 150 - 160 and it did real good. He's a retired NASA engineer so I'll get him to figger up the best payload. I know he goes overboard on building it light weight, but I tend to go the other way and make things stronger than they need to be, which I'll do on my boat. I'll use more fiberglass cloth than he does and beef it up so that it won't rip apart when I sit my fat butt down. We'll see, this is new ground for me.
Kayak Jack said:
You're right Jack about the strength thing. The one I build will have a lot more fiberglass cloth than the original builder used. I'm going to go with 1/4" Luann for the bottom and put butt splices on the joins. I figger even if I overbuild it, it'll come in under 25 lbs. which to me is super light. His boat is like a feather in your hand compared to my plastic ones.
Phish
I think you are on the right track and thats what makes this a neat hobby. You take the info and build a boat that fits your personality.
Ron
I think you are on the right track and thats what makes this a neat hobby. You take the info and build a boat that fits your personality.
Ron
If you want to make it a bit lighter, here is something you can do.
Imagine sitting in your typical peerow in the water. Now, lean to the side till the water is about to come over the gunnels at your side. Look at where the waterline now is. It will be at the gunnel tops at your side. However, that line will slowly arch down below the gunnel top till its just above the bottom at your bow and stern.
If you don't expect or need to deal with waves, all that material about the waterline is excess weight. It is also something to catch the wind. If you don't expect waves but want to deal with the once in a great while one, you could run a "cavas" cover across the the gunnels for a good length of your fore and aft sections.
My WAG is that would take about 20 percent off the total weight.
Would be kinda like a cross between a peerow and a kayak I suppose.
I would also investigate possible epoxies that stick REALLY well to aluminum. Hysol comes to mind. Also, how to prep the aluminum surface, like sanding, acid etching, and optimum cleaning procedures might pay off a bit as well.
As far as the bottom being rigid, you might be better off using weight wise using a thin bottom with something like a 3/4 by 1.5 "stringer" running down the center, than using a thicker bottom with no stringer and extra glass.
Imagine sitting in your typical peerow in the water. Now, lean to the side till the water is about to come over the gunnels at your side. Look at where the waterline now is. It will be at the gunnel tops at your side. However, that line will slowly arch down below the gunnel top till its just above the bottom at your bow and stern.
If you don't expect or need to deal with waves, all that material about the waterline is excess weight. It is also something to catch the wind. If you don't expect waves but want to deal with the once in a great while one, you could run a "cavas" cover across the the gunnels for a good length of your fore and aft sections.
My WAG is that would take about 20 percent off the total weight.
Would be kinda like a cross between a peerow and a kayak I suppose.
I would also investigate possible epoxies that stick REALLY well to aluminum. Hysol comes to mind. Also, how to prep the aluminum surface, like sanding, acid etching, and optimum cleaning procedures might pay off a bit as well.
As far as the bottom being rigid, you might be better off using weight wise using a thin bottom with something like a 3/4 by 1.5 "stringer" running down the center, than using a thicker bottom with no stringer and extra glass.
I had a few questions for Herb, and this was his reply...It may help others so I will share here.
The length is 14'.
The width of the top is 30".
The width of the bottom is 20".
The height of the ladders is 10".
The angle the end pieces make with the top ladder rail is 45 deg.
That makes the bottom length 12' 10", if my math is correct.
Other notes:
The rails and vertical members are1.25" wide and the end pieces are 1.5" wide. I made all my ladder wood from cedar fence pickets which are 5/8" thick.
The sides are bent downward 3" on each end (on the building board). That puts about the right amount of "rocker" in the bottom when the sides are bent around a center "former' during construction.
The length is 14'.
The width of the top is 30".
The width of the bottom is 20".
The height of the ladders is 10".
The angle the end pieces make with the top ladder rail is 45 deg.
That makes the bottom length 12' 10", if my math is correct.
Other notes:
The rails and vertical members are1.25" wide and the end pieces are 1.5" wide. I made all my ladder wood from cedar fence pickets which are 5/8" thick.
The sides are bent downward 3" on each end (on the building board). That puts about the right amount of "rocker" in the bottom when the sides are bent around a center "former' during construction.
I'm having a problem digesting this part. Does this mean he builds his ladder in an ark three inches low on each end from a straight line pulled off the center?
Richard
Here's an overview of how the side ladders are made:
Cut the 4' by 8' by1/4" bottom plywood material in half so that you have two 2' by 8' pieces.
Butt the two pieces together and nail or clamp them to a table so that you have a 2' by 16' building board.
Cut the lower ladder "longeron" to 13' and mark the center section.
Lay the longeron on the building board so that the lower edge is 3" above the bottom edge of the building board at the longeron's center and put a nail through the center of the longeron and drive it into the building board. ( I used 1" wire nails)
Bend the ends of the longeron down so that they are even with the lower edge of the building board and clamp or nail in place
Add the vertical members and end pieces and glue in place.
Add the top longeron and glue in place.
Cut the 4' by 8' by1/4" bottom plywood material in half so that you have two 2' by 8' pieces.
Butt the two pieces together and nail or clamp them to a table so that you have a 2' by 16' building board.
Cut the lower ladder "longeron" to 13' and mark the center section.
Lay the longeron on the building board so that the lower edge is 3" above the bottom edge of the building board at the longeron's center and put a nail through the center of the longeron and drive it into the building board. ( I used 1" wire nails)
Bend the ends of the longeron down so that they are even with the lower edge of the building board and clamp or nail in place
Add the vertical members and end pieces and glue in place.
Add the top longeron and glue in place.
Thanks, at the moment it's clear as mud 
but I'll chew on it a while and maybe it will clear up for me :lol:
Richard
but I'll chew on it a while and maybe it will clear up for me :lol: Richard
As I understand it...(I was confused as well)
The bottom chine rail or longeron is pre-bent into a rainbow shape by nailing it down to the workbench 3" up from the edge of the bench, one nail on center, and one nail at each end after the bend is made. Then assembled on the bench. After assembly it holds it's shape and nails are removed. Then roll about 15' of aluminum out on my lawn; place the ladder on top of it; and then, draw around the outside of the ladder with a magic marker. The aluminum can then be cut with shears or heavy-duty scissors.
The aluminum is epoxied to the ladders. Wire nails (1/2") are used to tack the AL to the ladders while the epoxy is still "wet".
The completed sides bend fairly easily around the center-section former. The AL gets drum tight during the process.
The bottom chine rail or longeron is pre-bent into a rainbow shape by nailing it down to the workbench 3" up from the edge of the bench, one nail on center, and one nail at each end after the bend is made. Then assembled on the bench. After assembly it holds it's shape and nails are removed. Then roll about 15' of aluminum out on my lawn; place the ladder on top of it; and then, draw around the outside of the ladder with a magic marker. The aluminum can then be cut with shears or heavy-duty scissors.
The aluminum is epoxied to the ladders. Wire nails (1/2") are used to tack the AL to the ladders while the epoxy is still "wet".
The completed sides bend fairly easily around the center-section former. The AL gets drum tight during the process.
He built the "ladder" upside down. When inverted to its proper orientation, the curve was in the correct direction. We have to envision a panel, the flip it in our mind.
Exactly what epoxy does he use? How does he prep the surface? Looks like the aluminum comes prepainted. Is he epoxying to the the painted surface? Seems you would get a much better bond to well prepped bare aluminum.
shikeswithcanoe said:
In keeping with the simple design, and the lack of cloth on the bottom, I doubt that there is much "prep" at all. Merely speculation though.
As far as a better bond on bare metal, you are probably right. Just buy the TC with a bare aluminum side. It is available.
Ron
Thanks Freddie,
I have studied his deign and have I few questions before I begin. Can you stand in the pirogue he has built? If not, what width would you recommend? Is the 3" rocker an absolute or would say 1.5" would be okay? What method of joining the rail pieces end to end would yield the best results? I was thinking scarf or dowel but any input would be helpful. I also was thinking of putting on a keel strip.
I have studied his deign and have I few questions before I begin. Can you stand in the pirogue he has built? If not, what width would you recommend? Is the 3" rocker an absolute or would say 1.5" would be okay? What method of joining the rail pieces end to end would yield the best results? I was thinking scarf or dowel but any input would be helpful. I also was thinking of putting on a keel strip.
I have not heard from Herb. A little note the rungs on the ladder are on 16" centers from center member. I have used the Kreg jig with screws and epoxy to join all the wood. I was unable to find any trim coil in a timely manner at the big box retailers but was able to acquire gutter coil instead. I'm still on the ladders but moving along. The building board was an excellent idea. Photos to follow