To glass or not glass

[Hydrophillic]

Quick question about glassing the outside edges- If I used bronze ring shank nails to secure an epoxied plywood bottom to the chine log is necessary glass the edges or is okay just to lay a couple coats of epoxy down on the bottom? I plan to paint over the epoxy but wondered if was really necessary to glass the edges.

John

 

[seedtick]

Depends on how tight and well glued your seams are

We don't tape seams but your mileage may vary

 

[Hydrophillic]

Thanks Seedtick, The seams are tight as a drum or floating crate in this instance. The chines are well sealed also. I figure the mileage will be worst in rocky or shell lined area but the flat water I mainly paddle is rimmed with mud banks mainly. I guess I could always go back and tape the edges in the future. BTW what paint did you use on your last boat it looked really nice.

 

[seedtick]

There"s lots of folks that believe that you can"t build a boat without fiberglass and filled epoxy "peanut butter", but the reality is that there was zillions of plywood boats built with inside or outside chines before fiberglass and epoxy ever came into use. I stil have my dads plywood boat (inside chines, weld wood glue and screws) built in the fifties and it still floats and doesn't leak.

We've used a variety of paints. Interlux is excellent but requires good surface prep and careful application. Duralux is what we use most when we paint. It's not a particularly hard paint but goes on easy and repairs well and is significantly cheaper than Interlux.

 

[Hydrophillic]

I was thinking the same thing about fiberglass when putting the bottom on. The old timers with plank construction relied on swelling to seal up their boats. With modern materials I thought maybe fiberglassing was over kill and the nails would provide all around fastening.

I will check out the duralux. Pictures to follow soon of the launch.

Thanks,

John

 

[Oyster]

I don't use an ounce of epoxy or thickened epoxy on any and all boats that I do not want to use fiberglass on, especially at the chines where chine battens are used. Proper boat building fits and materials that incorporate bronze nails or bronze screw fastener preferably can get quality flex poly caulking these days from all bg box stores. Lathering layers of epoxy on the outside skin also does nothing to seal seams if your fits are incorrect, not even thickened epoxy for long term if you use your boat any amount of time. While glass tape does deal with end grains of plywood, unless you use quality plywood, the finish will need to be faired too unless you are just going utility style too. This post may go against the grain here. But long before epoxy was sold as the fixall, people built boats even without a single ounce of any bedding and they lasted a long time as long as they were mindfull of fitting the parts correctly.

 

[oldsparkey]

This post may go against the grain here. But long before epoxy was sold as the fixall, people built boats even without a single ounce of any bedding and they lasted a long time as long as they were mindfull of fitting the parts correctly.

Not really , because like you said the old boats were built without anything but wood and paint and they lasted a long time with the proper care , as with anything you have.
As a kid , back in the dark ages , I had a wood boat that was nothing more then wood and paint , with a good cleaning and maintenance 1 time a year it lasted for a long time and as far as I know it probably is still around being used , or I would hope so.

Today a person has both ways to build a boat and that choice is up to them and what they want , the way they want it. With boat building the modern materials do help the 1st time builder in the construction of the boat and it does not need to as precise as back in the old days.
Plus with the modern materials the maintenance is not as much as without them. It's just if you want to be traditional or modern of even a combination of the two today.

It's nice to have a choice and making the decision can be difficult at times. :lol:

 

[Oyster]

Well if you get right down to the nuts and bolts of most discussions pertaining to epoxy versus caulking, a numbers crunching person does not really save on small boats usingmost quality caulks, even though convenience does play a small role in the two. I am still a big fan of thinking down the road. With wooden chines incorporated into a build and you have problems with them rotting or becoming satuated, even 5200 will release from the wood and you will have an easier time in upgrading the build without a total destruction of the hull materials.

But with that being said, the problem for me is that if a person plans on using wooden chines and quality fasteners, epoxy and in particulare thickened epoxy serves no real purpose unless you are attempting to fill large voids which straight epoxy will not do. So there are some qualifiers in these discussions and straight tape can cause some false sense of security and can actually create a lot of added work that will need to be redone too or added work to deal with the finish aspect of the build too.
Its still important to abide by a set of building guidlnes in small boats in particular slated for certain boat building plans and not try to outsmart oneself too if a person goes that route. Weight alone can cause some seriously adverse conditions in particular. Of course we know that Seedtick would never divert from his building plans and I would never ever question a designer either. :lol: 8)

 

[Kayak Jack]

When home building (hand crafted for some builders) a boat, a person can do it to suit her/himself. Seventy years ago my Dad built plywood boats. His were on a frame, fastened with brass screws and Rogers' Fish Glue. (Rogers' Fish Glue came in a pint can, and stunk like - fish. But - boy - did it stick stuff together!) Some were speed shells, some outboard runabouts, others were row boats for fishing. All were painted, or varnished with Water-Lox. All held together well. Glue-nail, or glue and screws are stronger than just nails or screws alone.

An ultimate test of a joint is to destroy it, and see where it separates. If the joint separates, it was not strong enough. When part of the parent material also comes apart, then the joint was at least as strong as the parent material. When we have the capability to construct a joint that strong, that is the direction I will go every time. Fasteners are historically the weakest part of a structure, whether a boat or a house. Why not transcend that weakness?

When I build, I'm not a detail person. While I pay a lot of attention to the outside configuration of a hull, a 1/16" gap is not a concern for me. That's where I use thickened epoxy. That practice likely adds a couple of ounces to my boats. It saves a lot of time and frustration. To save weight, I refuse to have anything metallic in my boats. Just a personal preference (read "prejudice") of mine. Not better, not worse, just personal preference.

ANY fabric (fiberglass, carbon fiber, even a chunk of cotton bandanna) glued onto a piece of wood will strengthen the wood or joint. Obviously, some strengthen it more than others. My boats get used around, in, through, and upon rocks. In the Great Lakes area, most rocks are not smooth and round. Lots of igneous rocks here with sharp edges and points. They scrape and gouge with gay abandon and great alacrity. Almost anything a boat builder can do to protect the hull is a good idea - short of armor plating with steel. For my use, I want the outside of the boat to be encased in epoxy and fiberglass. I want the inside - at least up to a bit above the water line - to be glassed. This small addition of weight adds tremendous strength, and resistance to splitting and fracturing when a boat is impaled on a sharp point. Boats that are used in a friendlier environment may not need that additional reinforcing.

 

[Oyster]

ANY fabric (fiberglass, carbon fiber, even a chunk of cotton bandanna) glued onto a piece of wood will strengthen the wood or joint

Thats not entirely correct. An entire book could be written and has been written when dealing with fiberglass iwhen it pertains to structual applications. This must have numerous qualifiers. Finish cloth with weakened areas such as the turns of a bilge without fillets or radius outside corners means nothing in the skeem of things and trusting finish cloth in structual applications can cost a person's life in the wrong conditions.

Fasteners are historically the weakest part of a structure, whether a boat or a house. Why not transcend that weakness?

Once again this is a broad brush and does not reflect reality in any manner. Too many fasteners in any line can weaken wooden components. But people must not get too obsessive about thinking that fasteners are good and more fasteners are better. This comes from proper building practices and even following directions if this is part of a build. You ask why not transcend that weakness? for starters there is one main reason no matter how people like to ignore this. I am not attempting to get into any confrontation. But one thing that comes to mind is that plank or frame or plywood on frame construction is quicker too. While a learning curve can take place in smaller hulls before moving along to bigger ones, if you are just looking at building small boats, you can actually build most quicker too, even though getting to 3-D may not be as quick on some instances. The work on tape and glue is after the boat appears to be a boat and does not reflect in anyway the costs either. Its all dependant on what a person is attempting to achieve in any of these projects.


But the expense of building both the plywood on frame versus tape and glue construction differs, with the T&G costing more. Your scantlings may require smaller components but you will also probably need more in the larger boats too. But anyway carry on.. I have said my piece.

 

[oldsparkey]

You will not the find the 1st piece of metal in any of my boats. With three exception's , the drain plug in the Bayou Skiff and oar locks plus the hold downs on the straps for the kayaks hatches.
But that is just the way I make mine and do not expect anyone else to do the same since each builder has there preferences. That's what makes the world keep turning and interesting.

 

[tx river rat]

There is a lot of knowledge in this thread and some misrepresentation.
You asked about any advantages to cloth on the out side corners of a log chined boat, there is very little gained with that application besides the wear factor. You are not using a sandwich construction where you have a layer on both sides so there is very little benefit to doing it.

ANY fabric (fiberglass, carbon fiber, even a chunk of cotton bandanna) glued onto a piece of wood will strengthen the wood or joint

Thats not entirely correct. An entire book could be written and has been written when dealing with fiberglass iwhen it pertains to structual applications. This must have numerous qualifiers. Finish cloth with weakened areas such as the turns of a bilge without fillets or radius outside corners means nothing in the skeem of things and trusting finish cloth in structual applications can cost a person's life in the wrong conditions.

This is one of those double talk deals,why would you lay fiberglass cloth in areas you didnt have filets or radios an outside corner,that would be like building a log chined boat without the the log chines,wouldnt make a whole lot of sense. Sandwich construction epoxy cloth on both sides of a piece of wood does drastically increase the strength and stifness THAT IS A SCIENTIFIC FACT, PERIOD .

Fasteners are historically the weakest part of a structure, whether a boat or a house. Why not transcend that weakness?

Once again this is a broad brush and does not reflect reality in any manner. Too many fasteners in any line can weaken wooden components. But people must not get too obsessive about thinking that fasteners are good and more fasteners are better. This comes from proper building practices and even following directions if this is part of a build. You ask why not transcend that weakness? for starters there is one main reason no matter how people like to ignore this. I am not attempting to get into any confrontation. But one thing that comes to mind is that plank or frame or plywood on frame construction is quicker too. While a learning curve can take place in smaller hulls before moving along to bigger ones, if you are just looking at building small boats, you can actually build most quicker too, even though getting to 3-D may not be as quick on some instances. The work on tape and glue is after the boat appears to be a boat and does not reflect in anyway the costs either. Its all dependant on what a person is attempting to achieve in any of these projects.

Your completely ignoring Jacks statement and going off on the time and ease of construction. Because of heat exchange , and the different properties of metal to wood contact these are problem spots


But the expense of building both the plywood on frame versus tape and glue construction differs, with the T&G costing more. Your scantlings may require smaller components but you will also probably need more in the larger boats too. But anyway carry on.. I have said my piece.

Now I am going to say my piece ,drive through your town and look in the back yards and drive ways ,I bet you dont see to many wooden boats that are forty years old , but there will be plenty of fiberglass hulls that sit out in the rain and sunshine that just want go away.
The wood you use, how you use the boat, and the abuse it will take and the amount of maintenance you are willing to do should dictate what kind of construction you use and the life expectancy of your boats.
I* am just the opposite of Oyster I wouldnt give you 15 cents for a hull that is log chined and painted ,just doesnt fit my paddling style or inviroment or longivitey I expect out of a boat.Just to clarify my position I am not knocking any kind of construction just stating the facts I know
Ron

One piece of advice ,what ever construction type you use for your boats stay with them for that build dont try to mix and match.

 

[Hydrophillic]

Wow,I opened a can of worms. I agree with all with the longevity fiberglass affords. My most recent build is more of experiment of using Herb Cottle sides and wide transom in the spirit of Glen Simmons glades skiff. I made her short, 11' 9", with 1.5" concave cut out in the bottom of sides. The skipping of the fiberglass is more about testing the design faster. I did apply a good bead of epoxy to the bottom of the planed chines before I sank the nails through the plywood.I will let you know how it all works out.

 

[oldsparkey]

Apples or Pears , they both are tasty and refreshing to eat , they just taste different.
Wood boats or Glassed boats , they both float and the particular style is what that person wants , not what someone else wants.

"O" by the way Costco has a Pear/Apple combination and it is delicious , I really like them.

 

[JEM]

Style of weave matters as well. For a weave with a high "density" and still conform well to tight corners, look at 4 or 8 harness satin weave. Also known as "crowfoot" weave. It's almost an axial type cloth and can handle a tight radius.

But there's a catch: The weave is so dense that it's harder to get air bubbles out. So you have to really work it or look at bagging it.

A looser weave is easier to work with, but not as strong.

 

[Kayak Jack]

I Hadn't heard of a weave configuration. That's a new issue for me.
I've never seen or heard of any problem in any of my boats on rocks, logs, beaver dams, or an occasional bottle of single malt. I'll let others use other glass, and just stick with what has worked for me. At my age, I'm not out trying to run into icebergs or anything like that.

 

[oldsparkey]

As all of you might of noticed ...
I deleted a lot of the postings on this thread and I am sure it will ruffle some feathers but there is a reason for it.

We were getting way off the subject matter , which by the way was answered in the 1st page , from there on it slowly became argumentative and then to the ridiculous stage for the next 4 pages so they VANISHED.
By the way before you email me cussing and fussing , my responses to that mess also vanished , so you are not alone in losing postings.

As Hydrophillic said after several responses on the 1st page ...( about the 12th response ) .... Wow,I opened a can of worms. I agree with his observation so I emptied that can.

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The opinions expressed by the members on this forum are just that , opinions and what they have found after building several boats. For the 1st time builder I suggest you follow the designers recommendations about the build since the designer knows what the boat will do in any style of building. NO ONE knows that boat better then the DESIGNER.

After you have built a boat and understand the process then most of us have modified the building to suit our needs or the way we want to build it. Most of us have strayed from the designers suggested way and have functional boats but that experience comes from building several before that modifications we have done. What worked for us might not be to your satisfaction but time is the judge in that.

Any suggestions that we make in response to a question is just that a response to offer options that worked for us and you might want to consider on down the road.

 

[FloatingBear]

DITTO!!! On the designers suggestions for the first build. My boat came out fine. Just take your time and finish it when you finish it.