Staining/colouring ply | SouthernPaddler.com

Staining/colouring ply

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TK1

Member
Jan 21, 2008
11
0
Melbourne, Australia
Hi,

I am currently building a S&G kayak and am thinking about the finish, etc. My first one so below the waterline at least will be painted to cover some messy scarf joints.

But the sides (and hopefully the top) will be OK so will be at least partly clear varnished. However, the ply I am using is very light, and I'l like some contrast between deck and sides.

So I thought of using stain to darken the wood - to a teak/mahogany type colour perhps.

Have others used stain before? Is it compatible with epoxying and fiberglassing? I'll do a test, but wanted to hear if others had tried this.

Thanks,
Darren
 
O

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
10,479
123
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
TK1 said:
Hi,

I am currently building a S&G kayak and am thinking about the finish, etc. My first one so below the waterline at least will be painted to cover some messy scarf joints.

But the sides (and hopefully the top) will be OK so will be at least partly clear varnished. However, the ply I am using is very light, and I'l like some contrast between deck and sides.

So I thought of using stain to darken the wood - to a teak/mahogany type colour perhps.

Have others used stain before? Is it compatible with epoxying and fiberglassing? I'll do a test, but wanted to hear if others had tried this.

Thanks,
Darren
Click to expand...

The epoxy will darken the ply by about three shades so before you stain it try some left over epoxy on a scrap piece. You will be surprised on the outcome of the shade , then later on a coat or three of some varnish will even darken it more.

If you do want to stain it then use a water based stain , an oil based one will have you cussing. We have discussed this in the past , numerous times with folks who wanted to do what you are thinking about.

It is all here on the forum but since you asked ..... Always try something you are thinking about on a scrap piece of wood before doing it to your boat. Less cussing , swearing and jumping up and down that way ,or starting a new build to correct the mistakes.

When in drought , use scrap to see what the final item will look like and never , ever ... use anything with a oil base when using epoxy unless you like a lot of work and problems .........

Chuck.
 
K

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
87
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
TK1,

Surprised Sparkus Arrestus didn't mention this, but there are better treatments to do to the bottom than paint. Many of us apply three coats of epoxy that is enriched with about 20% (by volume) of powdered graphite. Makes the bottom tougher and slicker. Do this AFTER you glass the bottom, and only up tot he water line required.
 
T

TK1

Member
Jan 21, 2008
11
0
Melbourne, Australia
Hi Kayak Jack,

Thanks for this. I had seen some posts about the graphite mix, and was contemplating this as an alternative to paint. I've decided this kayak is the test-bed for things, so was considering giving it a go.

I did see on another forum (Guillemot kayaks I think) about someone using a white powdered graphite - now, I'm not sure how you make graphite white and still retain it's properties, unless it's a substitute that does the same thing. Have you or others here tried it or heard of it?

Do I just go to a supplier and ask for plain-old normal graphite powder, or is it something special?

Thanks,
Darren
 
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Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
87
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
No such thing as white graphite. No such thing as white chocolate either. Both are substitutes. Use the original black graphite.

I have used white pigment in epoxy inside my kayaks so I could see up under the decks. But that is pigment, not graphite.
 
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TK1

Member
Jan 21, 2008
11
0
Melbourne, Australia
Hi Jack,

I found the thread: they were talking about "hBN" which a quick Google search showed as:

"Hexagonal boron nitride (hBN) has the same layer structure and properties as graphite, and be called white graphite"

I didn't read the article, but yes it seems to be a substitute with similar properties to graphite but white. Interesting! Jack here

I may look into it...although the name sounds nasty enough that I may avoid it just to be on the safe side! :shock:

Regards,
Darren
 
S

seedtick

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2006
1,161
7
Denham Springs, LA
Contrary to Sparkey's experience, I've coated over a penetrating, transparent oil stain on pine and cypress with no problem.

but remember that all woods and all stains and all epoxies are not equal

take Sparkey's advice and try it out on a scrap piece
 
J

Jimmy W

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2006
611
1
north georgia, USA
I'm not sure what your point is Jack. Graphite has carbon atoms usually arranged in a hexagonal pattern although sometimes it is rhombohedral. The white graphite has a hexagonal pattern of boron and nitrogen atoms. The stuff seems to be pretty safe from what I have read, but you probably shouldn't breathe it (or regular graphite either). Graphite is easier to come by and I personally would rather have a dark bottom on my boat than a light colored one. I did notice that several people on that forum said that they added fumed silica (cabosil) to the graphite epoxy mix and said that it makes it harder than graphite and epoxy alone.
 
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hairymick

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2005
2,107
2
Queensland, Australia
G'day Darren,

Mate, I have used Estapol water based stain and it seems to work fine. :D

Re the Graphite, Many of us here use it in the proportions Jack has mentioned and it works fine too. I wouldn't build a boat without putting it on the bottom.

You can get the graphite powder in Aus, at ATL composites. Look them up on line, They have an office in Melbourne and all ATL staff I have spoken to are good people.
 
K

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
87
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Not much of a point, only differentiating between the two substances. Anal retentive, I guess. :p

A white bottomed boat may be preferable to a black bottomed one, if all else is equal. In a campsite, I turn my boat upside down. If the sun is shining (I tend to hit camp mid-afternoon so I can get in my practice nap before dinner hour), the black bottomed boat can get hotter than billy got ins a sheep pasture.

Might be interesting to cover a piece of scrap ply with the two substances, say, 3 coats apiece? Have a strip of standard epoxy in the middle between the two hard coats? Then gouge across the three-part surface with the corner of a mill bastard file a few times.

On my boats, granite, flint, gneiss, etc. scrape the graphite stuff, and as the scratch travels upwards tot he standard epoxy digs deeper as a gouge.

If you can get the white stuff and feel like trying it out, let us know? I'm interested.
 
T

TK1

Member
Jan 21, 2008
11
0
Melbourne, Australia
Out of interest, does the graphite coating add much weight to the boat? I assume - as it's being applied in epoxy - it would add more than varnish coats.

Just wondering if those that have applied it notice the weight difference...and would you say it was offset by the reduced friction drag?

Regards,
Darren
 
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Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
87
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Certainly it adds some weight. I use about 3 oz per coat, X 3 coats. So, about 8 oz as some stays in the brush, some evaporates off, and I sand off the sheen.

The boat will slip through weeds, lilly pads, etc. much slicker, and is more robust against rocks etc. In my experience, it is a good trade off. Others will decide differently, I suppose.
 
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hairymick

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2005
2,107
2
Queensland, Australia
Darren,

I use about 100ml of epoxy per coat plus 20ml of graphite. (3 coats)

I don't know how much that weighs but very little at any rate. There has been debate on the Aussie woodboat forum about whether, in fact the graphite reduces friction through the water.

I don't know the technical stuff, but my boats feel faster through clear water with graphite. They ARE faster through weed clogged skinny water and they are a heck of a lot tougher too.

Imagine for a moment, you have just put your beautiful new boat in the water for the first time. You have just spent an extraordinary amount of time fairing the hull and applying multiple coats of varnish and brought it up to a mirror finish.

Do you really want to run the bow up onto the bank, or scrape it over river stones and such? Graphite, eliminates this pain. :D
 
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