Pirogue History Question!

[FlaMike]

I was surprised to learn (here!) that there were quite a few variants of the Pirogue. really enjoyed learning the differences between the swamp style and the marsh style pirogues. And I'm now set to build a marsh pirogue.

On another forum ( ) I was asked if I'd seen the plans for "Payson's Pirogue," so I saw that it was a 5 panel hull. Bottom, two bilge panels, and two side panels. And those side panels were near vertical. Very little flair at all.

Am I wrong in seeing that as being outside the definition of a pirogue? I can see where it is somewhat derivative of a pirogue, but not a pirogue. I think I said something along the lines of "You can move the mast of a catboat back closer to the middle of the boat, but it would no longer BE a catboat. That forward placed mast is part of what makes it a catboat."

So, is there any historical precedence for a 5 panel pirogue?

I think they are just starting to get mad at me over there. :roll: :lol:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[JEM]

If the original pirogues were made from dug out logs, then panel count doesn't matter. The number of panels are used to try and duplicate the round shape of the log.

One definition is focus on the bottom being flat and not much concern for side shape or overall size.

Interestingly, pirogues are a large part of West African culture (the flat bottom definition). It predates the Cajun version.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/25/world/afr ... la-pirogue

 

[hairymick01]

Mike,

I think that there will be purists in things like this no matter what the subject is. For many of us, pirogue probably means a flat bottom, 3 panel boat or a dug out.

If some bloke wants to call his 5 panel boat a pirogue, that's fine too. Our boats are evolving all the time, just like our language is devolving.

What the West Africans are calling a pirogue, Philippinos are calling a Banka boat and I would call the same thing a very big outrigger canoe

 

[Kayak Jack]

I used to be on the "Baidarka" forum - kayaks. Some "purists" blathered on against plywood boats, saying that skin on stick was the ONLY true kayak. Joints not to be fastened with rivets, but tied off with either imitation rawhide or nylon.

Nylon?? "And, where did Nanook buy his nylon?", I asked. Silence.

 

[FlaMike]

Maybe I am being too picky. I'll just have to remember to point out that my own personal views on the subject of what a pirogue is, is based on those built in the Southern US. Perhaps that makes it a narrow view, but it works for me.

As to boats built historically on other continents, I don't figure them into the equation, as I don't think information was imported or had any impact on the building of the boats here in the Southern US. The only real connection is the language that supplied the naming of the type. Those languages were definitely imported and promptly adapted and often thoroughly distorted until it fit right in.

So, I guess I'm right. . . And wrong.

I'm wrong in that the discussions on the various forums are very happily taking place world wide. And I'd do well to keep that in mind and be respectful of the thoughts and opinions found in them.

But for my own use, I will keep my definition in tact, as the one I work from. The more "localized" a definition is, the more likely a tradition can be preserved. And that is what I'm looking to do. Broadening that definition would make it meaningless.

As important as advancing the Art is, I think it's equally important to preserve it's origins.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

Different folks in different areas have the same terms for different things , I guess that makes them different from us. :lol: But sometime really hard to understand just what they are talking about. :roll:

I will go with pirogue meaning a boat used in Louisiana in the old days to get around in the bayous and backwaters.

Chuck.

 

[stickbow]

I will go with pirogue meaning a boat used in Louisiana in the old days to get around in the bayous and backwaters.
.

I think in the context here, that's completely correct, Chuck, and probably the best solution for the boats we are talking about. If you start digging deep enough, "Pirogue" and several variants of the spelling show up in early colonial texts. They're a much bigger, sailing boat that are often essentially a dugout with additional boards at the top. That sure ain't what any of us are talking about.

 

[jdupre']

I was vacationing in Savannah, Ga. last week and saw a "dugout" on display at a museum. The description said this dugout was popular locally in the 1600's and 1700's. It was a dead ringer for the pirogue built in Pierre Part in the short film "The Pirogue Maker". Might have been a foot or so longer, but the end shapes and overall lines were just about the same.

There was another dugout said to have been built around 1900. It was the size and shape of a typical V bottom aluminum boat of the 1960's. About 16 feet long, 40 " wide and 20" deep......... from one log. There were braces here and there that may have been added along the way to hold the inevitable cracks together. The braces looked to be from natural crooked limbs for strength.

Joey

 

[FlaMike]

Looks to me like I have to say again, I was wrong.

The more I study, the more I learn. Seems the pirogue design was in all likelihood influenced by several cultures, and then evolved locally into what I think of when I hear "pirogue." And of course, Keith & Seedtick provided a good education on the evolution in LA, due to the different uses, and the change over the years of the available building materials.

Joey,

I'm a little envious of your museum experience! But I've got a little trip to make, myself. Going North to Ft. White, FL, to learn more about my state's version of "Cajun Culture." I'll look around first to see if I can find what I'm looking for a little closer to home, but I HAVE to examine some of Glen Simmon's Glade Skiffs.

I just finished reading "Gladesman" and it does provide information on how he built the Glades skiff, but it is rather sparse on the "fine points." I hear more than one museum has boats built by him on display. I will be taking the camera. . .

They never called themselves "Gladesmen," that title came from the guy who was heading up the project that created the Everglades National Park. Interesting to note that building that park pretty much resulted in the end of that culture. There are those who call themselves Gladesmen, but from what I've uncovered so far, they really don't appear to have maintained the original culture and traditions like the Cajuns seem to have.

But I'll keep looking.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

I think that culture also suffered when the Corps of Engineers came in and basically stopped the natural flow of water into the glades area from the central part of Florida. The thin sheet of water they used the boats in vanished except for the rainy season and naturally standing water areas.

 

[jdupre']

There are those who call themselves Gladesmen, but from what I've uncovered so far, they really don't appear to have maintained the original culture and traditions like the Cajuns seem to have.


Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Mike, I think the Cajuns have maintained their culture because the communities here were cut off from each other up until the 1930's or so, when roads came through and linked them to "civilization". The town of Pierre Part, of Swamp Man Troy Landry fame, had NO access by road until the 30's. My little town is 5 miles from Pierre Part and my mom said that was as good as 100 miles back in those days.

Pirogues were work boats, many times made by men handy with tools but not true professional boat builders. They built them to do a certain job with the materials they had. If a man happened to have a few 13' 8" cypress boards hanging around, guess how long his pirogue was. :wink: If the board width allowed only a 23/1/2" bottom, guess how wide his pirogue was. Designs were changed to suit the local and the paddler. People tend to raise small boat building to some inflated standard of perfection. I doubt someone scratching for a living spent spent hours getting perfect, invisible joints or two weeks varnishing a boat until it glistened in the sun .

Nothing at all wrong with putting effort into making boat as perfect as it can be, it's just not the true representation of the real way these boats were built and used. I compare it to the Cajun dish jambalaya. It was a way to stretch a little meat to feed a big hungry family. Nowadays, people put 2 and 3 lbs of meat in a pot of jambalaya. Dang good and I love it, but not the TRUE jambalaya. Ok, getting off my soap box now. :roll:

Joey

 

[FlaMike]

I appreciate your insight!

Seems that what preserved the Cajun culture is just the opposite of what happened to the Skiffers. Not only did the outside world move in on them, they actually helped them do it. (Part of what makes the book interesting.)

I have started a new thread on this, in the General section.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[seedtick]

some history

http://www.louisianafolklife.org/lt/vir ... meaux.html

 

[Kayak Jack]

Someone once said that, "By his work, you shall know the craftsman." Interesting to explore those links, ehh?

 

[FlaMike]

Lord, YES!

Just finished reading the link seedtick posted, Thank you very much!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Kayak Jack]

We may, or may not, be brothers under the skin. But we're sure as heck brothers under the sandpaper!

 

[FlaMike]

Amen, Bro!
And Happy Independence Day, too.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Wannabe]

Make sure you Reread the Document least we forget.
Bob

 

[FlaMike]

Since you mentioned it Bob, I have an ebook copy of the Constitution on my phone, along with a copy of the Federalist Papers.

I had to work on the 4th, and on my way home in the morning, I heard a really nice reading on the radio, about 7 minutes or so, of the Declaration of Independence. Made for a nice morning drive!

Funny thing, I don't recall hearing anything about Entitlements. . . :shock:



Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Kayak Jack]

Google "America, why I love her" by John Wayne. You'll like it.
(Chuck, move this to either General or Geezers section?)