Okay, a good design for Idaho waters. . .??????

[Steve]

Okay, guys. . . I've been thinking about this hard and heavy since I have been here. . . I need a good boat for these waters around here. . . There's more white water here than what my "T" could manage, anyway it's back in Texas so it doesn't do me any good. . . So I need to start getting serious about what I need it to handle. . .

There is flat water, here, but most all the rivers and streams have a good deal of the fast white stuff so I know I am going to need a design that can take it. . . there's everything from Class I on up and my arse cheeks pinched up tight when I saw some of the white water along the Payette and that's the one they call the "River of No Return" and has it has held that name since the fur trappers came here near 200 year ago. . . and that doesn't match the Lochsa which is ALL CLASS IV AND V :shock: (No, thank you, Bill. . . I leave those two rivers to the kids training for the U.S. Olympic team. . . They can have 'em.)

Now, of course, needless to say, it would HAVE to be a WOOD boat. . . Canoe, preferably, so Susie can tandem with me on the flat stuff. It would still need to carry me (abt 250#), Susie (abt 135# soaking wet), and about 100# to 200# of gear. . . depending on how much camera gear I haul on any given trip. . .

Questions being:

#!. Would ply work for this or would it be best to strip it?

#2. In either case, strip or ply built, how much glass would be best? Would 6 oz inside and out be enough or should it be more.

#3. I know 16' might be a bit much to handle in some instances with the Class II and III stuff (I won't be lettin' myself venture into no Class IV or V, no way. . . . Yes, Bill, White stuff do bother me, one day I'll tell you about it. . . . :| )
So what kind of suggestions do you guys have as for a good tandem length?

While I am sorting this out, I figger for all the Bull Slop we toss around on here, you guys are still the best ones to come to for input on how best to go about this. . . (Jack, don't let it go to your head, now. . . :lol: )

All input will be much appreciated.

 

[Wannabe]

Steve,
One question. Would you fancy a drift boat. If I remember right Matt was tossing one around in his very busy head a while back.
Bob

 

[oldsparkey]

I did the Buffalo River with a 15 1/2 made out of 1/8th wood and glassed with 3.25 tight woven glass. Only reason for that was I was told there were some mild rapids and next to none on there by someone and even one outfitter. That is the last time I listed to that outfitter and will really question that other person. That outfitter even told me I would be able to paddle the river in a Pirogue when I called him and asked him about the river , which I almost took on the trip.
Good thing for him I took the canoe or he might of had a really short life time when I got off the river if I ever got off it. :twisted:

Not knowing those rivers you are talking about a heavier wood and stronger glass might do the trick but as far as white water goes , my thoughts are that the best thing is an Abrams Tank or a plastic canoe. One will plow threw and the other is forgiving when kissing rocks.

With some luck :roll: , someone might have a better answer for you. I'm not a white water enthusiast , if anything just the opposite.

Chuck.
PS. What do the locals use ??????

 

[JEM]

lots of rocks and rapids do not mesh well with a wooden canoe. A plastic hull might work better.

Now you can take a woody through Class I ok if you're just looking to go through it and not trying to get fancy.

you might say "Hey a drift boat is wood!" Yes but it has some extreme rocker and is built and overbuilt to take river abuse.

If... IF you were to build such a canoe, I'd say 4mm ply and double up on the fiberglass, INSIDE AND OUT on the bottom and up to 1/2 the height of the sides. A couple extra layers on the stems too.

You could use 6mm ply as well but that depends on the design you're building ... some designs have a 90 degree twist on the bottom panel and 6mm is tough to bully into that shape.

Definitely use graphite so you slip off the rocks and not get hung on them.

Avoid a hull with hard angles as they tend to grab on rocks more than a rounded shape. A strip-built would be more helpful in this regard.

You'd likely want something with a bit more rocker so it can maneuver better.

Those are just some ideas. Checking out what the locals use is a good place to start.

 

[Steve]

Bob, as far as a drift boat, I wouldn't wanna try learning to use oars in fast water. I do love a good looking drift design but I'd prefer to keep the oars for lake use, I think.

Chuck, I understand what you mean about not being a white water enthusiast. . . I am pretty much the same, but, it is here and I will have to deal with my reasons for not liking them if I want to get any kind of river time paddle enjoyment. It's amazing how God sometimes puts us in situations to make us deal with some issues out of our pasts. . . anyway that's a story for another time in another section. . .

Matt, Chuck, most of the folks, here, from what I've seen and what I've been told by some of the better outfitters in the area, use either the plastic yaks or the inflatable pontoon 2 and 4 person rafts, chiefly because they be cheap. Alot of the local lakes and some of the river lodges have some F/G composite canoes and the dreaded "A" word material canoes made by that airplane making company. . .

I prefer the wood. . . I have the skills to take one out into a III, or IV for that matter. I am confident of that, it may have been a few years. . . but the skills are there. I do know that a wood canoe, and a wooden kayak for that matter do have the resilience to handle the waters I am talking about. . . In fact, the Nez Perz and the Cour D'Alene Indians regular ran birch bark canoes in these same waters. . . the thing is I need to make sure I take into account all factors and build it with the strength necessary to be able to travel them safely, that's my primary concern. It's not going to be just me paddling whatever I build.

So, would 12oz fabric on bottom and 6oz inside be strong enough?

The stripper idea appeals somewhat but might take a while. . .hmmmm. . .Sasquatch 16-33 in a stripper? I wonder how that would look?

 

[oldsparkey]

If you want to go with wood and have the skill to handle the boat ..... My bet is on the Sasquatch.

My little 14 x 30 handled some water on the Brazos that would make anyone pucker up when looking at it , especial a flat water paddler. Not just thinking about the surprises around the bend but those waves that storm tossed at us , they were something along with the wind. Might say the last leg of the trip was some white water since it was capped with white.

I have had canoes in the 14 area and none of them would of done what I asked this one to do and it did it. To say I am happy with it is like saying the Elfie Tower is a 2 story building. :wink: Matt has one dam good designed canoe in the Sasquatch.

A 16 x 33 with two paddlers all the better.

Just a personal idea for what it is worth.

Chuck.

 

[bearridge]

I figger ya already got some mitey good advice, but the best they give ya iz ta listen ta the local paddlers. However, good rafts 'n inflatable kayaks aint cheap....not at all. Mebbe on ebay 'er Craigs list, but a good ducky runs over $1000. A good raft oughta run more'n that. Me'n Swamprat looked at some new plastic canoes last week.....wonderin' what we would do if we lost our ancient Daggers. It wuz mitey sad. I didnt see no boat I liked 'n they cost an arm 'n three legs.

Check ta see if an outfitter up there rents canoes. [They don't rent any on the Nantahala no more.] Sometimes they let a boat go purty cheap so they kin buy a new one fer the fleet. They got Trade Winds up there? Folks aint buyin' used canoes these days, so ya mite run up on a good deal if ya keep a peeled eye.

regards
bearridge

 

[bearridge]

Friend Steve,

The Sierra Tradin' Post haz a store in Cheyene, IIRC. I git a catalog frum 'em near bout ever week. The got a Bell Chestnut Prospector Royalex canoe fer $1050. 16'....set up fer tandem @ 65 pounds. They got a 15'8" Old Town Charles River fer $711 @ 80 pounds. I dont know anythin' bout either boat 'er yer rivers, but I know Royalex....tuff stuff. [These are "seconds"......hind tit suckin' QC.]

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/

regards
bearridge

 

[Steve]

Royalex? Did I see the word Royalex written somewhere in here? Who on here uses Royalex? Isn't Royalex in the same category as the dastardly Aluminum and corruptible plastic? Gasp, choke, cough. . . . :lol: :lol:

For personal reasons, I will never, ever have another Royalex canoe. . . good stout boats that can and do take a lot of wear but they are not for me. . .

Actually, my thoughts and desires still fall to wood. . . I know that taking the time and expense to lay down 3 layers of 4oz glass and then risking destroying all that work sounds irresponsible and a tad bit foolish considering the "rock-meet-wood" theory.
For many a year, it was wood that went down the rivers and streams of this country and, yes, Lewis and Clark may have opted for the Royalex and aluminum had they been available but wood was what they had. . . in fact, if memory serves me correctly, I believe, they did it in some large sized dugouts. . . at least up to a point. . .

So, advise for building the best possible WOOD boat for what I can expect to run into here water-wise, please. . .

Oh, btw, Bill. . . the "cheaper" comment. . . not mine but the outfitters. . . they consider them cheaper in regards to the
$1000-$2000 investment per they are spending as compared to the $5000-$8000 they would spend on the much preferred wood designs......... They prefer to spend the big money on the big aluminum jet boats they use for tours and such here. . .

 

[Steve]

Dang. . . got on my soap box about wanting wood and forgot about my question. . .

Thinking between two possible designs here. . . the Sasquatch and a Prospector model. . . Matt, how would a Trapper compare? I know it's design is for less strenuous use, but it is a good looking design. . .

I am wonderieng if I would want a ribbed design. . . And that is my question. . . Actually, Susie brought it up last night and I thought about it some last night. . . I know I would prefer a wood/glass composite like what is usually built on here but if I built it as a stripper and added ribbing like that used in canvas canoes, would that provide me with some hull strength? I realize it would add some weight but that isn't a concern? It would probably be a bear to glass, though, huh?

 

[JEM]

Trapper would do ok but it might be a bit big as a solo. Not as fast as a Sasquatch but it sounds like you're in moving water.

With the ribs, you could build a very strong boat buy they take a lot of labor to build if you're going to do traditional steam-bent ribs. If you're using nails/tacks, then you need to construct a build form. There's some good books about building a ribbed (wood-canvass method) canoes. Lots of work but they are very beautiful and fetch a good price if you ever decide to sell it.

I could help you with a strip-built canoe design if you don't find one out there. I did a stripped Freedom for a customer that turned out real good. I need to get that design posted up. But there's lot of wood-strip canoe designs already available. Bear Mountain Boats has some nice ones.

 

[bearridge]

For many a year, it was wood that went down the rivers and streams of this country and, yes, Lewis and Clark may have opted for the Royalex and aluminum had they been available but wood was what they had. . . in fact, if memory serves me correctly, I believe, they did it in some large sized dugouts. . . at least up to a point. . .

Lewis 'n Clark paddled flat water til they got ta Great Falls, Montana country. Then they got out 'n toted some of their gear 'n boats. They put some wood boats on the west side of the mountains 'n destroyed some of 'em. They had ta stop a while 'n eat injun dogs while they built some new boats ta finish the trip down the west side. I figger they lined more'n they paddled after that.

I still don't know jest how rocky yer rivers will be. Never paddled out there. I hope to before I git old like the High Sheriff. Good thing weight aint a concern. [grin]

regards
bearridge

Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored. Aldous Huxley