New member builder questions

[tcsavoj]

Hey everyone,
New member here and potential UJ Pirogue builder with some questions.
I had planned to build from plans using 1/4" ultraply XL which I have seen some use on this forum. Not sure of framing lumber type. I am looking to make this more fishing oriented and planned to increase the width and depth by 20% yielding approx 30" botttom and 37" at the gunnel. Should I increase the side height also to 12"? Not sure of length, I am hoping to keep the weight at something easy for the wife and I to car top. Anyone see a problem with this? How much will the width increase stability? Is stability in this design a function of width only or the proportion of width to length? Any help appreciated,
Thanks,
Tony from WI

 

[a Bald Cypress]

I can't help with your questions but, Will welcome y'all aboard.

I will however say that within a short time, there will probably be a reply from JEM and or Seedtick. Either of them will give the straight scoop. I have never , ever in my life , which is beginning to get a bit long, seen anyone or any group more willing to dispense FREE PROFESSIONAL advice than the folks on this site.

So, again , I cnanot help ya bt welcome aboard & watch out for the owned. His dog don't bite but he does.

 

[oldsparkey]

I 16 1/2 foot standard Pirogue from Uncle John , in 1/4 inch wood and glassed will weigh in the 50 pound area , depending on the builders skill it might be less.

I have never seen one like you are describing so anything I could say would be guessing. I do know for sure that the standard one made with a 4th rib widens out the center of the boat and add stability. The guys who I have paddled and fished with did that and they can stand in them to cast and fish.
All of the ones I have made have been standard and I did elongate one of them to just under 17 1/2 feet.

They are quite flexible in the way they can be built for a specific purpose by the builder... I like light weight boats and made one , standard length and width at 32 pounds after I made one normal one. All the rest have been modifications to some degree.

The 12 inch sides would work and make for easier paddling , that is the highest I have ever made mine. The main thing with the stability in them is to keep your center of gravity low until you get the hang of paddling it , sort of like when you started riding a bicycle , after a while it is old hat and you know what you can do.

The Pirogue is a great boat to start with when building one , you learn all the principals of building and glassing and have a boat to use if you decide to move on to something else , even if it is making one for the wife to use. Don't tell your wife but with out a deck on them and a removable seat they will stack inside each other for transport. Something the other boats can't do.

Chuck....
PS. Don't pay any attention to ... a Bald Cypress ... about the biting , I have had my Rabies shots. :lol:

 

[seedtick]

never built a UJ, but expanding one (or two) dimension (s) without expanding them all will certainly give you a boat with a different look and different qualities than the original. These boats were built long before anyone drew up any plans for them. By hand and by eye, they fit form and function and you're certainly free to vary any set of plans to your liking.

By and large, wider is more stable but at the expense of ease of paddling, speed and maneuverability. Look at a kyak as being as stretched out version of a pirogue - longer and more skinny - but it paddles easier and is faster, but I don't see many folks duck hunting or standing up in a kyak. It's hard to quantify "more stable". Like Chuck alluded to, stability is like learning to ride a bike, the more you ride the more stable it becomes. Joey Dupre could hold a fais-do-do in a pirogue with a 30" bottom.

A bigger boat is more lumber, more glass and more epoxy - so by definition it will be heavier. You have to take the design weight and scale it up to the bigger boat - don't know what your limit is. I don't cartop and i don't unload boats by myself so a 100lb boat isn't a problem for me but there's lots of folks here that can give you sizes and weights for their boats.

 

[gbinga]

A couple of quick observations;

-I used the Ultraply and liked it. Seemed more solid and consistent than typical luan, while still being cheap.

-Wider would be more stable.

-Heavier would tend to be more stable, too, although if you are car-topping you probably don't want to earn the stability that way.

-Taller sides don't make more stability. They just give you more freeboard (distance from the gunnel to the waterline). That could be important according to how much weight you are going to carry. Sounds like two people and fishing gear, but of course people come in different sizes.

-The thing about a flat bottom boat is that once you ever get to the tipping point, it will go over pretty quick, and taller sides won't probably save you...I don't think. I may be out of my depth on this last comment; let's see what others say about it.

Obviously if you make a boat wide enough, it won't want to tip over. I have an aluminum jonboat with a 42" bottom. I could stand on the gunnel if I wanted to. Wouldn't want to paddle it though! You gotta think not only about the shape of the boat and how it cuts the water, but also about how far you are having to reach to the side in order to paddle.

George

 

[jdupre']

Welcome to the nut house, Tony. I have a suggestion for you. Borrow a pirogue or canoe and get out in shallow water(with a PFD) and spend an hour rocking, moving , tilting and overturning the boat. Find out the limits of balance for you and the boat. You would be surprised how a "tippy" boat settles way down after a little familiarity. Then you might find that you can get by with a little narrower boat with a bonus of lower weight and easier paddling.

islandpiper gave me a super skinny kayak a while back that was flat scary to paddle. A couple of trips in it and I'm pretty comfortable in it now.

Joey

 

[Kayak Jack]

...The thing about a flat bottom boat is that once you ever get to the tipping point, it will go over pretty quick, and taller sides won't probably save you...I don't think. I may be out of my depth on this last comment; let's see what others say about it....

George has a point. Semi round bottomed boats go over pretty predictably. Flat bottom feels OK, an as it starts to get squirrelly - you're already wet.

 

[jdupre']

George has a point. Semi round bottomed boats go over pretty predictably. Flat bottom feels OK, an as it starts to get squirrelly - you're already wet.

In my experience, flat bottom boats of the narrower widths ( 24-25") given adequate flair, will be taking water over the gunnels way before this point. With the wider widths, your center of gravity has to shift several more inches to one side to be in trouble. If the off side chine comes out of the water at this point- splash- over you go.

 

[tcsavoj]

Thanks everyone for the info, My wife and I have very limited experience in a canoe but really enjoyed it. I know the added width is a stability to speed trade off but thought if the project works out I may try another geared more towards paddling. I just did not want something that was so twitcy it really was not a practical fishing rig. As for weight I would be happy with something around 60#
Thanks again,
Tony

 

[Bellybuster]

Just for interest, I built a standard UJ Pirogue and have fished the crap outta this boat alone and with either one of my daughters aboard. I also carry a trolling motor and battery along with all my fishin gear. I have fished calm backwaters and larger lakes with moderate chop
The UJ is quite a stable boat, especially if you keep a low center of gravity. With my eldest girl aboard I'd say total weight inside is aprox 270lbs. At that weight I will still have 4-6" of freeboard. That's a guess, I think it's probably more.

 

[islandpiper]

The three UJs I have built act this way: Initial stability with one paddler, no gear, sort of squirrely........feel like they want to be tippy.....but, if you lean on one gunwale and try to submerge it, the boat stiffens up as more of the side becomes submerged.

With my big butt and a full load of gear, leaving about 3-4 inches of freeboard and whitecaps forming......well that is an excercise for the anal sphincter muscle for sure, but the UJ has always carried me home, or I would not be writing this.

The only trouble i have had, and Jdupre' will attest to this is when a rogue wave comes aboard and the water is 3-4 inches deep INSIDE the boat. Then, the "slosh period" can be just plain wrong, and the next big wave may be timed perfectly to come in too. Carrying the wrong, and untested, bailing sponge does not help. Not planning ahead and not having a milk-jug bailer is just plain stupid. I admit it....my nifty new milk-jug bailer was scavenged off the litter on a shell bank that Jdupre' led me safely too . Live and learn.

Thanks again Joey!!

piper

 

[jdupre']

JDupre' - adventure guide. :mrgreen:

One good thing, piper, we found out the upper limits of our boats. :shock:

 

[islandpiper]

Joey, do you have a side shot pic of my boat loaded and moving? I'll see what i have of yours and post it here. piper

 

[islandpiper]

Joey, this is all i have of yours in the water. I guess i was busy 1. paddling 2. cursing 3. watching the whitcaps 4. scooping water out of the boat with my hat to get the camera out and take pics on the open lake.

Notice the big smile on his face? He hadn't taken any water in. His freeboard was about the same as mine and his sides are ten inches I thing, versus the 12" sides on my boat . I think I outweigh him.......he is a careful eater and I am on the SEE-FOOD diet.

piper

 

[jdupre']

Actually the sides are 9.5" before I planed and sanded them. Here's the only pic I have of your boat. Too busy watching waves I guess.

The difference in freeboard is partly weight and partly the fact that I have very little ( less than 1") rocker. Piper's UJ has probably 2.5" of rocker. This causes the center of the boat to sink deeper before it displaces enough water for the load it's carrying. Or not. :?

 

[jdupre']

Ok, Tony, back to the original question. One thing to consider is seat height. A one inch change in seat height can make a DRAMATIC difference in perceived stability. Keep your seating low and you will feel much more secure-- same principle as a kayaker sitting almost flat on the floor of his boat.

 

[seedtick]

I'm pretty sure I've posted this before, maybe a couple of times, but here's a 14 footer carrying at least 600lb

they're not out in whitecaps and high seas, but those old folks sure ain't worried about tipping over

 

[islandpiper]

Gator bait.

 

[tcsavoj]

Thanks for the great feedback, it sounds like seat height is the prime stability factor in this design. I'm not sure if I will go with the seat plans from UJ or come up with my own set up. What is the height above the bottom on the UJ seats? I only ordered the boat plans for now. I need to survive my daughter's wedding this October before I can get to real building but I may start cutting stems and frames soon. Any suggestions on wood for frames and stems. I can get clear yellow pine, poplar or mahogany however I'm not sure about the mahogany quality or origin. Thanks again

 

[oldsparkey]

On the UJ Seats I can say for certainty the front slat is 4 3/4 inches from the bottom of the boat and the last slat in the seat is 4 1/4 inches from the bottom.
The reason I am positive about that height is I designed and made the 1st one then gave the plans to Uncle John to have on his web site. :lol:

Chuck.