NAILS , SCREWS OR GLUE

[catfish]

HEY GEEZERS I KNOW YOU GONNA THINK I,M A DUMMY . WELL PROBALLY AM. BUT LIKE THE OLD SAYING DON,T NEVER KNOW UNTIL YOU ASK. NOTHING VENTURED NOTHING GAINED . WELL DON,T KNOW SINCE I HAVENT BEEN JOINED THAT LONG SOMEONE MAY HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED IT . DO YOU EVERY USE OTHER FASTENERS OR GLUE EVERYTHING. I WOULD LIKE TO BUILD ONE OF THESE FINE BOATS YOU FELLAS HAVE POSTED ONEDAY. I GUESS IF I USE UNCLE JOHNS MAYBE THIS QUESTIONED WOULD BE ANSWERED.

DON,T KNOW IF YOU GUYS HAVE HEARD OF WILLIE HARRIS BOATS. WELL I HAVE ONE THAT I GOT FROM A FRIEND. IT IS 9' LONG CANT REMEMBER WIDTH. IT WAS NEEDING A BOTTOM & SOME OTHER WORK . I PATCHED IT TEMPORALLY & HAVE USED IT A TIME OR TWO. STILL NEED S ALOT OF WORK . YOU SET IN THE MIDDLE IN THE BOTTOM OF IT . YOU DON,T MOVE ALOT OR YOU WILL BE GETTING YOUR HAT. IT WILL TOTE TWO PEOPLE FINE & WITH ONE PERSON DRAFT ABOT 6" OF WATER. ( CATFISH)

 

[Kayak Jack]

I'm going to give a hoity toity answer, then qualify it.

Use glue for everything. Once in a while, you may need to temporarily fasten something with a screw, and then remove it.

Only the unwashed or troglodytes use nails in boats.

Qualification: Everything I said above - I mean - ABSOLUTELY! Epoxy & glass add so much strength to a structure, that it becomes a unitized, integral whole. Metal fasteners will normally create a joint that is not even as strong as the parent material. (When you destroy one of these joints, the joint will fail around the fastener first.) Epoxy and glass actually make it stronger than the original parent material. (When you stress one of these structures to failure, first off it is MUCH stronger than the original plywood by itself. Secondly, the parent material is as likely to fail as are joints.)

Our boats are, by and large, fully monocoque construction. That is, all the strength is derived from the skin alone - not internal bracing. An egg is the classic example of a fully monocoque structure. Some are semi-monocoque, strength is a mix of internal bracing and skin. NONE of our wooden boats get their strength from an framework.

Exception to this are the beautiful "skin-on-stick" kayaks that Black Dog builds. These are primarily a framework for strength, and a fabric skin for waterproofness. (Our forebears used animal hides the women chewed into a soft, pliable material. Thought I've never had the privilege of meeting Black Dog's spouse, I'm betting there's a good reason he uses fabric today.)

Other builders and designers will add their own comments and experience. Some will agree with me, others may well disagree. Listen to them well.

 

[bearridge]

Friend catfish,

Now put that Duo-Fast nail gun away. :wink:

regards
bearridge

If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. James Madison

 

[hairymick]

Heya Catfish,

Old chippies saying (chippy is Ozspeak for carpenter) Nails & screws only hold it till the glue dries. In our case, glue of choice is epoxy resin & wood flour.

 

[keith]

nails and screws

NUTs! I use nails, screws , glue and good wood. Others may use cheap wood and expensive epoxy and glass. You can get away with it on small boats. Large boats dont use glue below the waterline. Your choice, good luck, later keith

 

[Slammer]

I'm going to use a brad/trim nailer on my next one. Especially if I find some brass or stainless ones.

'dat make you cringe?

Also depends on what you want out of the boat. If you want a piece of functional art and beauty then by all means use all glue and the screws to hold it in place then remove.

If you want something just plain ol functional like a duck boat, layout boat, trotline runner, then by all means nail that 'sumgun together epoxy overit and don't worry about it.

but I don't think brads/trim nials will make much of a differnce, will save a little time and will save me the frustration of stripping those damn brass screws.

If you do plan on using screws to hold it together until the glue dries and romove them, the black sheet rock screws worked best for me.

 

[sheena's dad]

Kayak Jack says: ...Only the unwashed or troglodytes use nails in boats...

True...in most cases...however it does depend upon the style of boat you are building. Cedar canvas canoes make use of nail techniques as well as some lapstrake designs of various styles. However, the best fastener, no matter what anyone else has to say (AND YOU HAVE RECEIVED THE BEST SAGE ADVICE FROM FOLKS I CONSIDER TO BE THE SAGEST AROUND>>>>also maybe the cagiest.... :wink: ) the best fastener, as I was saying, is the one you finally choose and are most comfortable with. After all, it is your boat, and you're the one who needs to feel comfortable with what you've done. (Copper nails when used correctly are quite nice looking on a boat.)

My advise.... same as Jack... glue and screws (or, in my case, staples).

 

[Kayak Jack]

Dad - and others too - make good points. I was in my late twenties before I began to realize the importance of fastener selection. After picking up a few aircraft wrecks, and looking them over with a critical eye, I began to realize some things.

Any time you make a joint, you make an opportunity for failure.

Any joint or repair adds weight, weakness, or both.

The only real test of any type of joint is to tear it apart and see what breaks.

Metal fasteners (nails, screws, rivets, staples, etc.) concentrate stress into a small area of any parent material. This very fact can eventually weaken and destroy any parent material at each of those sites.

Metal fasteners make holes in a boat hull.

Separately, hatches are a notorious offender in this category of attempting to build a watertight hull, and then intentionally making holes in it. (Think about that concept a while, and ask yourself the logic of it.)

Glue and fiberglass spread out stress over the entire structure. This is what allows a fully monocoque structure - an engineering technique for making light, strong structures.

The simple act of saturating wood with epoxy strengthens it. Pouring a sack of nails or screw on wood and it will have no effect. Glue and fiberglass plug up holes, and make them permanently waterproof. Glue and fiberglass fasten many, disparate pieces into a unitized whole.

We have been given a culmination of top notch technology. The beauty of plywood, fiberglass, and epoxy is hidden within the simplicity of each. Their strength is hidden within their combination into an integral unit. Each one, individually, provided a step forward in boat construction. As a combination, they have no equal today for the home builder.

Factories, where tens of thousands of dollars are invested in machinery and molds to make carbon fiber and graphite boats can finally match what we can do in our garage.

To my way of thinking, using something else is like taking a knife to a gunfight. That being said, choose for yourself.

 

[hairymick]

Uncle Jack !

You are a Wordsmith!!!

 

[oldsparkey]

Uncle Jack !

You are a Wordsmith!!!

Mick , Ya hit the NAIL on the head or should I say Jack NAILED it.
Ok , so much for that lets just STAPLE it closed and SCREW the note to the wall and go down to the local JOINT for a cold one. :lol:

Chuck.

 

[sheena's dad]

Dear friend Jack, I do wish I had your eloquence with the written/spoken word.

I especially have to say I agree with you about joints. That's why on this second attempt at getting Sheena's canoe built (besides standing guard over the shop when #1 son works on his truck) I decided to build myself a jig to scarf the joints at the router table. After the job #1 son did on the first one, I decided that we had better scarf the joints this time rather than butt 'em up. So far the little jig works pretty good. I haven't had the usual hit and miss fits I usually have when I scarf. I'm even thinking I'll build one to scarf my plywoods on some other projects, if it works as well as this one does.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Dad,

Mick sent me some sketches and simple directions on how to scarf. I haven't worked up the courage yet to try it. I scab on patches and call them "butt blocks". Actually, both terms are a bit rough around the edges, ehh? Whether I call it a scab or a butt, neither one is very flattering.

Maybe, a reinforcing block?

Thanks, fellas, just trying to pass along some s'perience.

 

[sheena's dad]

Jack,

Soon as I can, I'll get a drawing put together for the jigs, if you'd like to see them. The one I've got built now does wonders with a router on a table. The other I'm still working out but looks like I'll have the same success with it. That is if you're interested.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Dad,

I don't have a router. My power tools consist of two 3/8" drills, one of them about as old as you. Tho other power tool is my sander.

I thank both you and Mick fro trying to save me from the oblivion of mundaneicity, but I'm hopeless. I've already sunk to the depths of depravity and have come to love and trust my reinforcing blocks.

Like the wicked witch of hte east, I'm melting!

 

[JEM]

Whether I call it a scab or a butt, neither one is very flattering.

Especially with your "carved white ass". Remember that one? :lol:

 

[Kayak Jack]

Nope

 

[keith]

screws and nails

Well Im not sure if its a pissin contest or a gunfight. And I have made a few plywood boats and a few wood plank boats, most of the time you have to paint the plywood to make it a "thing of beauty ". Is the strongest, the best? How strong is enough, down here our crawfish boats are made of welded aluminum, they run through the swamp into and over trees or anything else in its way, Its a tank and fast. You could make a pirogue out of aluminum and fiberglass it, it would last forever and need no maintenance, the perfect boat. I like WOOD, later Keith

 

[JEM]

it's like women....long as you like the one you got, no one else's opinion matters!

 

[Kayak Jack]

Keith, Isn't either one. Sorry if I sounded that way to you.

Each boat - and each material - has its own set of characteristics. It's up to the user and the use to sort out which characteristics are advantages or disadvantages. I prefer wood for a boat to any other material.

OUCH! I'd never consider painting natural wood grain to gain better looks. Wood is prettier than paint any day. And if the paint was used for modern art, my big toe is prettier than that.

I've seen boats made of concrete, aluminum, stainless steel, fabric and wood, animal skin and wood, fiberglass, plastics of many kinds, etc. I like wood. For a paddling boat, a log would be impractical for me. Plywood offers me characteristics that are advantageous to my use.

I can envy and admire a log boat, and would like to see and paddle one some day, but most of my trips would be cancelled if that was the only boat I had. So, I prefer plywood.

 

[oldsparkey]

I have had wood boats that were nailed , some were screwed and some had both done to them. One stands out in my mind and it was a Courtney boat made by Mr.Courtney in Pine Castle , Florida..

It was a 12 foot skip jack which had a 7 1/2 hp Martin motor on the back , it was my 1st boat at the age of 8. It was made from cypress and all it needed was to taken out of the water every year , scraped , sanded and repainted the traditional dark green that he painted his boats with.

When Dad sold the house on the lake the boat went with it , Dad was the boss and we moved into some woods without any lake off the back yard.

Later I made my 1st kayak ( at age 13) , it was glass , wood , nails and some screws and worked quite well. Later in my life , a lot , lot ,lot later I started making wood boats and those have screws in them to hold them while the epoxy cures , then they are removed , none of my boats have any metal in them , all of them when the last step is done are nothing but wood and fiberglass because that is the way I want them.

This is the pleasure of making your own boat , you do it the way you want it and don't give a hoot what the other guys wants , it is not his boat.

Chuck.
PS. Talk about tanks , in the early 60's I worked at Orlando Clipper for several years making aluminum and fiberglass boats , from 12 feet to 25 feet. Those boats are still on the water today , they are just about indestructible. The 12 footer ( aluminum) we would build up the transom so it could go from a 15HP motor to a 50 or 75 for the Game commission to use. Dam , they flew across the water.