Keel runner on Pirogue?

[FlaMike]

Rather than take the boat on it's second trip this coming Monday, I've decided to go ahead and put the finishing touches on it, and be done with it.

So far, these "finishing touches" include painting the sides a nice green, doing the graphite bottom thing, including stealing Tradglen's bringing that black finish up the stem & stern to the rail, painting the inside bottom only a haze gray with some non-skid, and applying varnish to the sides on the inside, both inner and outer rails, and both decks, fore & aft.

The only "not quite sure" item is the addition of a keel, or keel runner as I call it.

After having the boat in the water, I can say that I don't need it to prevent any flexing or "oil-canning" of the bottom. Even standing up in the boat, the bottom has no tendency to flex. The bottom was made of 1/4" plywood and has a covering of 6 oz fiberglass cloth on the outside, filled with 3 layers of epoxy, and no cloth except for the taped seams on the inside, and a complete covering inside of 3 coats of the epoxy.

An additional factor that may be keeping the bottom from flexing is that in order to get a wider bottom, I used a total of 5 ribs, with the additional rib being right on top of the center butt joint.

So, why would I be thinking about adding that keel piece?

Well, from reading of the experiences of others. These "others" seem to belong to one of two groups, some with a foot in both camps. One group suggest that the addition of a keel helps with the boats tracking while paddling. Although a single trip is not enough to render judgment on this, I have to say that I found it very difficult to paddle the boat with a single-blade, canoe paddle. I could be that all I need is more practice, but I never had any problems paddling a canoe this way. I used what I guess you'd call something of a "J" stroke, I don't really know, never having had any instruction on the matter. I just paddled along, not having to switch from side to side to keep in a straight line.

In the Pirogue, it was different. I had a devil of a time going straight with that canoe paddle. But I also took my kayak paddle with me, the one I made by scarf-joining two canoe paddles together. Using that one, I had no problem tracking a straight line. So, I don't guess I really need a keel runner for that reason.

The other school of thought is based on the use of the Pirogue. It seems some have found that the keel helps when fishing, by providing some tracking stability while drifting. It would be a little annoying to have to continually altering the angle of the boat with a paddle, when you are fly fishing, especially when standing like I tend to do.

If I'm going to add this keel runner, it would be best to do so, before I apply the epoxy-graphite bottom. And I would like to do that on my next day off.

So, for anyone who'd installed a keel, or keel runner, just how much difference does it make? (I call it a keel runner because they don't stick down far enough in the water for me to think of it as a keel proper. But that doesn't matter.)

If you've put one on a Pirogue, did it really make a difference in the way the boat handled, under paddle-power or while drifting? I'm having a hard time with the concept that such a shallow addition, with most being only 1/2" to 3/4" by 2" or 3" wide, with the wide part being flat on the hull, of making that much of difference.

I'd really like to hear from those who've done this. Especially if you've tried the boat without it, then added it on.

Anyone?

Uncle John tells me it's not a bad idea, but also that he's not actually done it, himself. He suggested that I simply "tack" the keel piece on and try it. An excellent suggestion, but this time I'd rather take the short-cut of going by the experience of others, as I've gotten to the point of impatience and want to be done with it so I can get the boat out there and chase down some redfish! :lol:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

Several things you could do.

1. Leave the bottom flat and just graphite it.

2. Add the keel and graphite all of it. A flat bottom will rove around more then one with a keel of some type , it is called water resistance.

3. Graphite the bottom and when that sets up add a short keel along the boat to help it stay on track. Epoxy the keel before you add it to the graphite bottom with some screws.
The reason I said that is because the keel will become a sacrificial part of the boat , it will stick down and take all of the abuse which means , it would have to be replaced later on.

4. Or add two smaller (thinner) keels or runners (side by side splitting the width of the bottom one on each side and not down the middle) on the hull to help keep it on track.

5. Anything attached to the bottom will help to slow down the side to side drift that a flat bottom loves to do when you don't want it to.

Just some thoughts from a flat bottom paddler.

Chuck.
PS. I trust you were joking about the paint :? Leave some of the wood , it is to pretty to cover up ( See the picture below ) . If not , it is your boat so have it the way you want it. :cry:

 

[Kayak Jack]

Here are four categories of choices as I see it:

1. Do nothing, keep it the way it is.
2. Tape on a keel & try it out. Do this with several designs. If you like one of them, attach it with screws as Chuck suggested so it can be replaced when worn. BE SURE TO PUT EPOXY IN THE SCREW HOLES TO SEAL THEM FROM WATER. Drill small pilot holes first, and use COUNTERSUNK screws the right length.
3. Glue on some design of keel after having tested it with taped on versions.
4. Put on a rudder.

 

[seedtick]

I like Jack's idea of temporary attachments. But before doing anything get someone to take a picture of or look at you in the boat loaded up and paddling. You want the bottom of the front stem to just be at the surface of the water.

If it's too high you're all over the place kind of like being on a pair of flat bottom water skis. If it's too low, you track OK but you're pushing a lot of water.

 

[bearridge]

Friend Mike,

If ya aim ta paddle small rivers 'n creeks, I vote "no keel". If ya aint happy without one, add one later.

regards
bearridge

Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever. Unknown high school student

 

[hairymick]

G'day Mike,

I have installed keels on both pirogues and the swampgirl.

Swampgirl was my first flat bottom build and I tried it without a keel first and had a little trouble keeping it going straight with a canoe paddle. Side winds also tended to blow it across the top of the water sideways. I added a short keep of 1" X 2" lying flat on the bottom to about 4 feet from each end leaving the from and back with just a plain bottom. It reduced manouverability somewhat but also reduced the sideways drift thing a lot as well.

I installed full length keels on the bottoms of both pirogues before I put them in the water. I am very happy with the results. Certainly manouverability is reduced but the benefiets for me far outweigh this.

Here are the benefiets as I see them.

1. The keel acts as a rubbing strip to protect the bottom when I run over little gravel races etc.

2. Sideways wind drift when casting lures or paddling is reduced

3. The boat is much easier to paddle (for me) with a single blade and to keep going straight.

I like the keels on these boats but my experience of paddling them is limited to only about the last 18 months or so. They work well enough for me in the conditions I like to paddle and in real skinny water infested with submerged logs and drowned trees etc, I can put up with the reduced manouverability in order for a more paddle friendly boat in the clear water.

If you are not sure, I would recommend you screw of length of 1'X2" timber onto the bottom and try it. You can easily modify or remove the keel if you dont like it. If you do like it, you have the thing allready mounted and located. All you need to do is to unscrew it, glue it back on with epoxy/woodflour and hold it in place with the screws in the holes allready drilled.. When it sets up, remove the screws and fill the holes with woodflour. - easy

 

[tx river rat]

After ya'll moo
unt the keel are ya'll glassing over it
Ron

 

[Kayak Jack]

Mike,

Up above I offered four options. Here's what I like. Next time you build a boat, build one with a semi-rounded bottom and forget all this "keel or no keel" stuff. Paddle and enjoy a boat that better matches whatever surface the water provides.

NOTE: This is a prejudiced opinion. Not all will agree. I'm only telling you what experience taught me. (I used to paddle flat bottomed boats too.)

People tell you that you need a flat bottomed boat to get into skinny water. Again, experience taught me otherwise. No matter what kind of boat you are paddling, the paddle still needs about a foot of water to be effective. When it gets shallower than that, you're paddling mud or dirt of some kind.

In the final analysis, it's your boat and your experience. You choose and you do it the way you feel best.

 

[oldsparkey]

Mike,

People tell you that you need a flat bottomed boat to get into skinny water. Again, experience taught me otherwise. No matter what kind of boat you are paddling, the paddle still needs about a foot of water to be effective. When it gets shallower than that, you're paddling mud or dirt of some kind.

In the final analysis, it's your boat and your experience. You choose and you do it the way you feel best.

To uphold the tradition of Jack and I never agreeing on anything :roll:

Undoughtley Jack has never paddled the Okefenokee Swamp. Round bottom boats (canoes) get hung up on logs and peat bogs while a flat bottomed pirogue just slides over them without a problem (less boat in the water). Just ask the guys on the last trip in there with me , they were cussing a blue streak at me while they got hung up and I ddin't.

Now if we would of had a foot of water then the paddles would of gone down that foot as it was we were lucky to have a few inches a lot of the times.
"O" there was some depth under the boats but it was filled with logs , roots , weeds , lily pads , branches and even some mud at times. We poled with the paddles more then paddled. To go the last distance to Floyd's Island we actually had to drag the boats about 100 yards up a canal. It is called ... Swamp Paddling.

John dragging his canoe. ( believe it or not , that is a hard sand bottom)

For the full trip report , Bill Logans Canoe Suwannee Web Site http://www.canoe-suwannee.com/oke12P1.htm

As the Kingston Trio sang in the song Everglades . We were Skippin' like a frog through the slimy bog.
Where a man can hide and never be found and have no fear of the bayin' hounds.
But he better keep movin' and don't stand still. If the 'skeeters don't get then the 'gaters will. Runnin' like a dog through the Everglades. (Last time - Skippin' like a frog through the slimy bog. Runnin' through the trees from the Everlys.)

Chuck.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Well, Chuck's right. You won't see me wading/ schlurping/ wallowing/ etc. in a mud bog. I prefer to paddle in water. Water that I can see through.

Were I to prefer swamps, I'd leave my canoe at home or at the edge of the swamp. It's a matter of choice.

 

[cctyer]

I hate to repeat myself here but we just proved again, There is no one boat that will do it all.

 

[JEM]

I hate to repeat myself here but we just proved again, There is no one boat that will do it all.

What??? Not even the Wa...........





Naw... ain't gonna go there! :twisted: :lol: :shock: :shock: :lol:

 

[oldsparkey]

I hate to repeat myself here but we just proved again, There is no one boat that will do it all.

Chad.
I agree with you , I can do that since you are not Jack. :lol:
I would also like to add that like everything in life all of us enjoy different things , this is what makes life so dang interesting.
It is the sharing of the information so there are a lot of options to chose from , like boats. The spice of life , choice.

Chuck.

 

[FlaMike]

First off, thanks for all the replies! The more info I have to work with, the better off I am.

Second, for my intended use, I have decided to add the keel runner. In keeping with the thought that I may have to drag the boat from time to time, I think I'd be best off with a wide, flat runner, right down the center line.

Now, the only question I have left is the thickness of that piece. I see where Mick mentioned a 1X2, but I located another post in my "build thread" where he said:

My keel is typically 1 1/2" by 1/2" kaying flat on the bottom. It also acts as a rubbing strip. It is much easier to put on BEFORE you graphite.

So, I'm collecting opinions again. What size should I look for? I'm going to the good, old Home Depot and see what they have available in the molding section, so I can find a single piece long enough. I'm just not in the mood for another scarf joint and getting a single piece long enough, ready-made, would sure speed things up.

1" or 1 1/2" by 1/2" be enough?
Would a thicker piece be that much better?
Or would a somewhat wider piece, say 3" be too wide?

I'll be picking one up on the way home, Monday morning. I could come down to whatever they have available. I'm kind of suspecting that just about anything I find will probably work out.

Now, as to the issue of shallow water and paddling. . . It's a Pirogue! Input from a local, dislocated Cajun is that if I'm not standing up and poling, I'm missing out on what a Pirogue is.

And I do spend quite a bit of time in very shallow (1 ft or less) water. Stand up fly fishing and polling the boat is what I'm looking forward to.

Thanks!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

The width does not matter , the wider it is the more weight , it is the depth of it ... most are 1/2 inch or 3/8ths.

It does not take a lot to help the boat. Which ever you decide on make sure you round off the edges , this will help to save it when it hits something , no right angles to chip off.

Chuck.

 

[hairymick]

Mate, last keel I put on was 42mm X 12mm or about 11/2" X 1/2". This is better for my purposes than the bigger keel I first used. (and lighter)

I think you will probably like the change such a keel will make to your boat.

 

[oldyaker]

Opinions are IceHoles.....Everybody has one. :roll:

 

[bearridge]

Friend oldyaker,

Yer rite. We all got ideas on how anythin' oughta go. I jest voted "no keel" without tellin' why. If I had, ya'll mite have figgered "well that dont mean nuthin' ta me".

The water I paddle the most iz white, foamy 'n fast movin'. A keel iz high on the dumbo list. I have paddled some flat water.....got some fine memories frum half a dozen flatwater rivers. The first time I paddled with the High Sheriff, Swampy 'n the Sunshine Boys on the St. Mary, the water wuz low, but there wuz some spots where ya had ta mind yer P's & Q's [pints 'n quarts] 'er ya mite git hung up agin a down tree. I watchted Swampy dilly 'n dally jest a bit too long.

A few years later I paddled anuther stretch of the St. Mary with the Paddlin' Geezers. It had rained 'n the water wuz up. Most of the time it wuz nice ta let the water tote the load, but we come upon a 100' tree layin' cross the river. Some pulled over ta the bank 'n started draggin' their boats. Some of us looked fer a path thru the limbs.

The next day we run inta the same thing agin....anuther tree cross the river. Some of us picked out a path, others followed.....turnin' on a dime. A Grummann with a keel didnt make it. Gear went everwhere, got wet, got lost, but we saved most of the gear, even kept some of it dry. Most important, the two paddlers made it ta the bank......but it took a long time ta rescue two paddlers, all their gear 'n the canoe. By the time we got thru, we jest pitched camp.

If ya jest paddle on flat, slow movin' water where ya dont have ta run over logs 'er rocks, a keel would likely be a fine thing have. If ya put a keel on yer boat, jest keep in mind that if it rains 'n ya find yerself on faster movin' water, take care, ya caint turn on a dime. I reckon it iz the same out on a lake if a hoodoochie rolls in.

I dont see no percentage in a flat bottomed boat.....on any water. :wink:

that iz my story 'n I'm stickin' ta it
bearridge


Bill Gates....Bill.....kiss my hindquarter. I got a Mac!!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 8) 8) :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol:

 

[oldyaker]

I dont see no percentage in a flat bottomed boat.....on any water. :wink:

Counsler....I hope that's just your opinion. You have just insulted every person on the Pirouge Building Section and the fine fella's sending in those great pictures of them enjoying those boats they worked so hard at building! :wink:


See Br'r Bear....I put a wink after my rant like you did after yours. I know what yer up to....and it ain't 6' 1". A lawyer never asks a question he doesn't have an answer to......or make a statement he doesn't know what the reaction will be.... :wink: :wink: :wink: :mrgreen:

You about due for a new s&)t stirr'n stick...ain't ya? :wink: :wink: :wink: :mrgreen:

 

[FlaMike]

OK, it's a done-deal then.

I'm going to follow Mick's lead and see if I can pick out a nice, long 1 1/2 X 1/2" piece out of the wood molding section and use that.

They key to my decision lies in my previous statement of "for my intended use. When Mick talked about the reasons for his additon of the keel, it pretty much matched up with my situation.

Not to say that the comments and suggestions of other fell on deaf ears, to the contrary, they were all most welcome and and quite informative!

Now for the "fun" part.

I'm no longer exactly sure just when I'll be doing what.

I'd decided to take the boat on it's first real readfish hunt Monday and Tuesday, the get all the "finish" work done over the next few days after that, so I could then make another trip, post the pics on the "Bragging Board," and call it "done."

But I got a phone call and it seems the DMAT unit I joined up with a while back has finally gotten it's act together and now I have to take a day and go through a second background check and get some pictures made for an ID card.

DMAT = Disaster Medical Assistance Team. Basically, kind of a volunteer mobile high-tech, field-portable hospital, working for both the state and federal govt. that is put into play whenever something happens to either ovehwhelm or otherwise incapacitate the local medical resources.
This could be from either a natural, or man-made disaster.

Signed up almost two years ago, they just now seem to be activly working on getting me in and trained to go. So now that the are suddenly in a "hurry," I'm not certain just what I'll be doing next week.

Life just keeps getting weirder. :shock:

And to think I haven't even mentioned the painting that I'll be working on, along with 14 others, in several different countries, to be sold at auction for a children's charity.

And I decided to build a boat and go fishing, to simplify my life. . . . :lol:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL