Fishing Kayak questions.

[JEM]

North Wind is one hell of a solo tripper. But it would be a tight fit as a tandem. I know this from experience. I paddled a Sea Wind, which my North Wind was modeled after, with my son and it was a tight fit. I did most of the paddling so we had just enough room for us and some gear for catching a fe pan fish. If were both stroking with a double blade, it would have required constant coordinated stroking. I've done this briefly with my wife. There's a good reason why they call tandem boats "divorce boats"! :lol:

I was thinking more along the lines of a shorter South Wind (Mick's boat...plans are almost ready) with a long cockpit opening.

To go as a combi (solo/tandem) type boat, might have to go a bit wider...say around 30".

 

[FlaMike]

Now this is starting to sound good!

With a much simpler hull form, such as my Unc. J's Pirogue, making changes in the length and width is relatively simple. (Must be, I did it.)

But with a more sophisticated hull form like South Wind. . . I'm guessing that isn't something where the builder could just "wing it."

I think I can picture the shorter but wider version, with a longer cockpit opening. I have to say that the idea really appeals to me!

I've probably have enough fg cloth on hand to cover the entire outside of something that size, and a good bit, if not all, of the inside as well. (I think there's that much anyway.) Also, nearly all of a roll of fg tape as well. I'd definitely have to get back with Raka for more resin & hardener, just about out of that.

Problem is, the fg cloth is Raka's 6 oz stuff. Kind of heavy, I know, but it was bought for a project that never quite got done, and I used some to cover the outside of the Pirogue, so I am used to working with it.

If I wanted to use that 6 oz. cloth, would I then be able to use a thinner plywood? (Thinner than 1/4", I mean.) I think I was right in painting the hull sides and inside bottom of my Pirogue, but on my next build, I want to leave a clear finish. Been thinking about maybe starting out with a water-based stain of some sort.

The thinner ply is just a thought for weight reduction. I was quite surprised and how strong the Pirogue hull came out using the 1/4" stuff. I found a bit of luan with some beautiful grain, and used that for the little bit of decking on my Pirogue. But, that's just a thought, not something I'm already completely set on.

Ah, the reason I took so long to reply this time is that I'm reading everthing I can find on the South Wind, on your forum. (Bunch of other interesting threads, as well!)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[hairymick]

Mike,

I have done some detailed reviews on my original southwind, both here, on Matt's site and elsewhere.

I stand by my comments in that I believe it to be the ultimate hybrid paddle craft, not quite a kayak and not a true canoe but with the best of both boat forms. It is for my purposes anyway.

At 17'9", it is a little long for true skinny water but this is more than compensated for in its amazing hull speed. This is very handy when you need to paddle several miles to get to the skinny water and then paddle back after a full days fishing. it is not as quick as a very good true sea kayak but not far behind it.

The ply I will be using from now on is what we call Gaboon, marine ply 4mm (5/32"?) with a genuine three plys of timber and is graded BS1088 and A grade finish on both sides. beautiful stuff. I have just taken delivery of 10 sheets at a very good price and a further 30 are on the way. At the price I was able to get them, it was just too good an opportunity to pass up.

Sorry for the ramble mate but the long and the short of it is that I believe 1/4" ply on a boat of this nature is overkill. If you can source quality ply at around 4 to 5 1/2mm (at a reasonable cost) it would be plenty. Particularly so if using 6oz cloth inside and out. You will need about 4 sheets. Count on using about 15 yards of cloth and probably, at least 6 litres of resin. I would budget on using 8.

A 15 foot version should be just a little slower and the added beam should make it a little slower again but it should still be a very quick boat for its type.

As to ply thickness, i uses 1/8th or 3.2mm cheap ply and 85 gram fibreglass cloth. I think 85 grams equates to about 3 and a bit ounces but am not sure. None of the panels on the original southwind are very wide so the 1/8th ply, completely sheathed in epoxy and fibreglass is plenty strong enough for my needs. the boat is rock -solid.

Having said all that, I would not use this ply again. It is a lot harder to work with to get the hull fair, in that the panels easily warp, before and while tacking and the finish on it is about 4th rate or C or D grade. The ply consists of a very thin veneer of timber on each side with some sort of compound filler in between. utter rubbish.

 

[JEM]

A multi panel boat is generally not something you want to try and scale. Can it be done? Sure. I had a builder scale my Sabalo SOT down 12". But it's a lot of work.

Ply thickness: 4mm is my general safe recommendation. Can you go thinner to 3mm? Yes but then you must realize that it will take a little more skill to build and you can't abuse it as hard.

1/4" is fine if you're just taping the seams of a simpler design. Great for a beginner or if that's the only ply you have access to.

Cloth: 6 ounce is the safe bet for standard e-glass. I've done 4 ounce but it was s-glass which is 20% stronger than 4 ounce e-glass.

 

[FlaMike]

For fishing and exploring the true "skinny' waters, my version of UJ's Pirogue fits my needs very well. The problem I'm trying to solve is finding a design to extend my range to include areas that I'll have to share with power boats and their wakes, as well as the wind and waves that go with these less protected waters. Not real "off-shore" stuff, still talking about inland, relatively shallow-water, Florida fishing.

I've read everything I could find on this and Matt's Forums, and I have to say that I've no doubt that South Wind would be most impressive and would suit me perfectly, except that I may be needing a boat with similar qualities, that will carry two people instead of one. Ideally, it would be one that could also be reasonably taken out solo, as well.

It may be that the requirement for a tandem that also works well solo is asking too much of a design. It may turn out that what I actually need would be one that is primarily a solo craft, that could "reasonably" be expected to occasionally function as a tandem. Just the opposite of what I said in the above paragraph. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this is more likely how the boat would be used.

Is a shorter, wider version of South Wind, with a longer cockpit opening, a design that is coming out soon? This does sound like what I should be building next.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

I was thinking more along the lines of a shorter South Wind (Mick's boat...plans are almost ready) with a long cockpit opening.

To go as a combi (solo/tandem) type boat, might have to go a bit wider...say around 30".

I've no idea what I've been going on about!

YES, Matt, that sounds perfect! :mrgreen:

Any idea when that plan will be available? I'll have to look around to find the right plywood such as you described. There'll be nothing like it in my local shops, but I'm only about an hour away from St. Petersburg and Tampa, where I should have no problem finding the right stuff. And I do want to do this one as "right" as possible. My Pirogue was not meant to be a "show boat," but I want this one to be just that, as well as a fun boat.

About that truck rack, since I messed up and had to add some height after I first built it, I will be building another. I'll probably go with PVC again, as I like being able to move it by myself, but I'll go up to 2", instead of the 1 1/2" I used the first time. And it will get painted with Krylon for the UV problem, and have padding added to protect the boat's finish.

With a boat up on the rack, there's actually room for a Freedom 11 underneath! It is my intent to build one of these, maybe a pair of them, for the express purpose of getting other's hooked on both paddle fishing and boat building. (I've evil that way. :twisted: )

"Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an addict."

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[dangermouse01]

"Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an addict."

Hi my name is Mike and I am a kayakaholic.:lol:

DM

 

[bearridge]

Friend Mike,

I like yer rack. I liked my racks, all of 'em, but it makes a heap a difference if ya drive 75 miles 'er 450 miles ta paddle. It also makes a heap a difference if ya drive 55 mph 'er 75 mph.

If ya drive fast 'n far, with more'n one boat up on top, peace of mind iz good. If I had bought the Yakima set up back at the beginning, I would be ahead on the cost 'n peace of mind. :wink:

Some time back I asked if anyone here knew anythin' bout the 303 Space Protectant. Not a word. I aim ta buy some 'n put it on my plastic boats, but nobody sells it round here. A few weeks ago I went back ta the Wenonah and Bell canoe websites, ready ta buy if I felt good bout the composite hulls. I noticed one of 'em (mebbe both) asked ya ta buy 303 ta put on the canoe.

If it iz that good, ya mite put some on yer PVC.....unless PVC is cheaper'n 303? :wink:

http://www.303products.com/

regards
bearridge

 

[FlaMike]

dangermouse01,

You already have a well-established reputation as one sick pup when it come to boat collections! I'm just starting out. One thing about my future Navy, it will be all home-built and all wood (well, some wood and a truckload of epoxy, anyway.)

Brother Bear,

I do make an effort to drive 55, but I notice that by the time I get to where I'm going, I'm having to slow down from about 5 mph over whatever the posted limit is. So sometimes it's more like 60, or even 65. The rack is well secured to the truck and the boat well secured to the rack. (So far, anyway. . . )

I've built a number of filter systems for Koi ponds with a lot of exposed PVC. I found that the cheap Krylon spray paints work well to paint a camo pattern on them so they won't stick out like a sore thumb, and it also protects the PVC from UV damage, quite well. I also noticed that simply painting the PVC a flat black made it look like a high-end, high-tech system, instead of a cobbled-together, home-made one.

The real "protection problem" is for the boat, being slid onto the rack. For that, I'm looking at taking some indoor-outdoor carpet material, or something along those lines, and using it to protect the boat rails when I slide it up onto, or off of, the PVC rack. I just have to place it in such a way that it doesn't interfere with my tie-down system. And just writing about it now, I've gotten some ideas on how to do just that! 8)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

I counted 8 , might be 9 (Not sure) plastic and ONLY two wood boats in this picture .... For shame , for shame , I will hang my head low and never look at the sky again. I was sure we taught you better then that.

That would be three wood boats with your new build which you are secreting away from us so we don't become to envious of your building skills.

Don't worry you can show it on here , we will just rake you over the coals later when you post a trip report when paddling it. Ya know like asking where you bought it , who built it , do they make more of them. Are you really going to get it wet or is that picture from Photo Shop ?

Chuck

 

[bearridge]

The real "protection problem" is for the boat, being slid onto the rack.

Friend Mike,

That wuz why I put the ole firehose on all my homemade racks. It will last longer'n yer truck, rack 'er boat. A fireman kin give ya some wore out hose. Ya dont need much.

Not only that, firemen ('n other rescue fellas who use rope) have ta chunk it after a few times out. If ya got a fireman pal, he kin give you some ole firehose fer yer rack 'n some used rope. Nobody ever had enuff rope. :wink:

regards
bearridge

ps I dont recall yer front end ropes. I put two screw/lock down carabiners under the frame of my pickup 'n run a rope frum the front of the canoe ta each carabiner. That holds it purty good when the high winds come frum the side.

 

[FlaMike]

The fire hose idea I like, and I know several firefighter/paramedics from the "werk-place."

As for my tied-down, I'm using a flat, nylon strap that I get at the hospital. They are normally used to strap people to backboards for spinal immobilization during transport. These straps are labeled for "one-time use ONLY."

Many come through clean and free of anything icky. They can't be used again for the original purpose, so they are free for the taking. I spend a lot of my time in the ER and quite often get left to get the patient off the board, myself. Not my job, but. . . My cost to them is I get to keep the straps!

The plastic buckles on these straps are their weak points. I don't use them, instead, I tie a bowline in the ends. One end gets looped to the inner rail, wrapped around the PVC cross bar, then over to one of the uprights and half-hitched around that. Then it goes over the boat and down the other side, following that same path. On this end, I add a piece of nylon rope to the end so I can tie it off, securely.

You can kind of see that, here:

From the side, you can see those straps going over the boat.

So, the orange straps hold the boat down on the cross bars, as well as side-to-side from the uprights. There is no lines going to the front bumper, as with the length of the boat and the design of the truck, such a line would run across the front of the hood, wearing into the paint. As far as I can tell, my current method does indeed hold the boat securely in place. It's made a number of trips that way, at highway speeds, and shown no tendency to move side to side, frontwards or backwards, nor up and down.

The base of the rack, 2 X 4's, fit into slots molded into the bedliner. The upper part of the rack is secured at 4 points, to steel hooks in the frame of the bed. The rack design is one I found here on the Forum somewhere.

Again, one of the nice things about it is that I can remove or mount the rack on the truck, by myself. And when off the truck, it makes a good storage stand for the Pirogue.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

I may be just talking to myself here, but I heard from Matt and it will be a little while before the design I'm looking for, namely a shorter, wider South Wind, that can serves as both a tandem and a solo craft, will be ready to go.

In the mean time, I'm seriously considering building one, or quite possibly a pair of Freedom 11's.

Got to feed that "boat-building jones" somehow!

As small as it is, compared to my Pirogue, it sounds to me like it will allow me to venture into water that's a little less protected than I can safely fish now.

Still, thinking over what Matt and Mick have said. . . A "combi," solo/tandem, being about 15 feet long with a 30 inch beam, and a somewhat long and wide cockpit, sounds a lot like Matt's Cape Fear, in the "sit-in" version.

Is the hull shape of the Cape Fear very much different from the South Wind?

Just wondering if this existing design might not be a viable alternative to waiting for that elusive "perfect" design? Frankly, I think I'd rather build a solo/tandem first, then the pair of smaller Freedom 11's, later on.

Mike S.
fence-sitting in Spring Hill, FL

 

[hairymick]

G'day Mike,

Is the hull shape of the Cape Fear very much different from the South Wind?

Yes, But I think it will still work well. Matt will be able to fill you in on the technical stuff, but I have allways liked the lines of the Cape Fear, so much so, that I bought the plans some time ago but have just not got round to building her yet.

Cape Fear SIK has fewer panels, so it should be a quicker and easier build than Southwind. I think it is also a little beamier than South Wind so it should be even more stable to fish from, though, I would not expect it to be as fast to paddle. I think Cape Fear is a very sea worthy boat and could fairly easily, be set up as a true fishing kayak but at the same time, retain its capability as a sometime tandem paddling machine. Particularly so if neither you or your partner are very big people.

I am 200 pounds and my wife is significantly smaller than me. I am confident, I could set a Cape Fear up as a versatile combi boat for calm-ish water and at the same time maintain its capability as an off-shore fishing kayak. I just don't understand why more people don't seem to be interested in the concept.

Just talking about it has got my "creative juices" flowing and I am keen to see what I can come up with.

 

[JEM]

Cape Fear is one of my original designs and I'm not sure if it's a fit to your needs.

The main draw back is the cockpit. It doesn't really offer the protection you'd need for more open or choppy water. It's more like a canoe cockpit. No coaming to repel water.

But, she is very stable. I built one and converted it into a SOT. Even with the higher seat position of a SOT, she can be leaned WAY over and still feel very solid. That's part of the reason the sit inside version doesn't have a full deck with coaming.

 

[FlaMike]

I've seen many pictures on the JEM WaterCraft Forum of cockpit coamings on quite a few different designs.

Now, I would not dream of making any changes in the hull of a design like Cape Fear, but when it comes to decking and items like adding a hatch or coaming, I'm just froggy enough to think I could probably pull it off.

Would my adding a coaming similar to other's of your design be a problem? I mean, would the little extra height cause a problem paddling or for fishing?

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[JEM]

Not really. You should be able to sit higher, if needed, and still be stable.

You'll need an extra sheet of ply (4 instead of 3)

 

[FlaMike]

Rather than build one that might be more of a compromise than I really want to make, I'm going to hold off and see what's in the pipe-line.

If it gets to where I just can't stand it, I'll build a Freedom 11 to tide me over.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[JEM]

These discussions are always interesting.

What is stable?
What is seaworthy?
What is fast/efficient?
What is light weight?
What is inexpensive?
What is easy to paddle?
What is easy to build?

The definitions usually boil down to 60% boat design, 40% individual.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Matt, "it's all relative" and, "it all depends". If a guy is used to a 150 pound pirogue, then an 80 pounder will be light. Etc.

If a fellow is used to Marjorie Main, then a 65 year old Sally Fields looks great. (I don't think that would work very well the other way around, though. Except for maybe Yakus Weirdicus ... maybe. He was hot for the manatees down on Outhouse Key)