Epoxy over paint?

[beekeeper]

It is my understanding painting wood first and then coating with epoxy is considered a no-no. Has anyone actually done this and with what results?

Wooden handmade crank baits are saturated with epoxy then painted. A top coat of epoxy is then added. This makes for an almost indestructable and very long lasting bait. It seems a similar procedure should work for a boat:
1. Saturate the wood with resin and apply fiberglass if used.
2. Paint.
3. Coat with epoxy.
4. Apply varnish for U.V. protection.

I epoxyed first and then painted my boat.

There are probably better paints than what I used (latex porch). It seemed to me the consensus on the Gator Boat site was that exterior latex was adequate. I would like a more durable finish on my next build.

Any thoughts on the "crank bait" procedure would be helpful.

beekeeper

 

[Wannabe]

Beekeeper,
That sure is a pretty little boat. Interesting fact about the fishing plugs. Probally be pretty expensive. You've got your thinking cap on. Keep one foot in and one foot outside the Box.
Bob

 

[oldsparkey]

No idea about the epoxy over paint , was always told it would not work but information does get screwed up at times. I would suggest trying it on a scrap piece of wood and see what happens.

Only thing I am sure of is an oil based paint .... forget doing that.

Chuck.

 

[seedtick]

I'm sure there exists somewhere a procedure for surface preparation that alows epoxy to stick to paint. But covering paint with epoxy then having to varnish it for UV protection seems to be an expensive and labor intensive way to protect the original paint job. Fishing plugs probably don't have much UV protection - but i really don't know

If you're looking for a more durable finish than latex porch paint, why not ratchet up to better boat paints, e.g. Interlux yatch enamels, sure they're more expensive than latex but they're not more expensive than latex plus epoxy plus varnish

 

[Oyster]

Low end boats, boats that are built that can be considered down and dirty sometimes get latex paint coatings that goes along the lines as " anyone can do it with simple and avaliable materials to anyone.'" I suspect that concept of using latex is just that even though wooden boats have used latex with great sucess for a very long time. Paints over time have changed too with the ingredients which has actually retarded the longivity of it. WIth enamels almost all the paints are basically the same blend of chemistry with some exceptions. Some have more gusto in the form of base and some more solvent which needs to evaporate in the drying process leaving less paint or colorant.

This also can complicate the application with runs and sags and even longivity too in the elements when excessive use of the boat takes place. Its best that you consider the amount of work involve and alter your approach in finishes and finishing in wooden boats in this topic. Primers while numerous folks will tell you to really skip this process or to skip over the tedious process of sand, prime, sand, prime and get the surface right and smoothe is key with wood for topcoats to last in regards to aging not scuffing,

Forgo the "trick" of epoxying over as this will complicate the process down the road if you keep the boat for any length of time especially when skipping the serious steps of getting the wood surface filled and proper. Then apply your topcoats also using friendly primers that carry the same components thats friendly to your topcoats.

As far as enamel paints and you are cheap, rustoleum and even Ace Hardware's equivilant XO Rust is priced right for the novice and can also last two to three years on trailer boats with zero issues even in heavy use boats. I can attest to that.

 

[beekeeper]

Thanks to all that replied to this post.

I need to clarify my question and idea. My post read "I would like a more durable finish.....". It should have been, I would like a more scuff resistant (proof) finish. If epoxy or expensive marine paints are really better, this may be my answer. I did not use porch paint to save money. I thought it would be resistant to scuffs and scratches.

On a small boat the cost and labor of a top coat of epoxy and varnish could be worth it for a better finish. Some builders use epoxy and graphite on the boat's bottom. Are there colors other than black? How well does this work?

I intend to paint and epoxy some scrap wood to test. I will post progress and results.

beekeeper

 

[Bilgerat]

I found an interesting article about graphite bottoms HERE.

Mike

 

[Jimmy W]

West Systems sells Aluminum Powder to add to epoxy for Abrasion Resistance. They say that will be a gray color. Hexagonal Boron Nitride is sometimes called white graphite and could be used instead of graphite to give a white coating. As the article that Mike posted said, adding colloidal silica will also make the epoxy harder. Chuck used Interlux Brightside Polyurethane paint on the bottom of his canoe. It contains Teflon which is supposed to make it more resistant to abrasion.

Jimmy

 

[beekeeper]

Have not ran test of painting and then applying epoxy and varnish, because I am saving my supply to saturate my U.J. seat., if I ever get to it. Searching here and other sites I can find no reference of any body saying the actually have done it this way. I did find post relating to applying water base stain first and then epoxy over it. No post of failures when doing epoxy over water based stain. As Forest Gump said "I'm not a smart man, but..." my simple thinking says water based stain works, water based paint should work. I will try a test.

If I am not mistaken "fiberglass factory built boats" are constructed by applying risen and glass over a mould. After the epoxy cures the mould is removed and you have a boat. Most of our boats follow the same process. we do not remove the wooden mold. If it offends anbody having their wood called a mould, I call mine a permanently bonded to the hull custom crafted wooden interior. :wink: Factory boats have gel-coat for the outside finish. It is very durable and can be many colors. I asked about using it and was told it has to be sprayed on with a larger than paint nozzle. The only paint spraying I do is from a can. There is information gel-coat can be brushed on. Has anyone tried it.

Can enough tint be added to the epoxy to not have to paint, when applied over wood?

beekeeper

 

[oldsparkey]

Raka has the tint that you add directly to the epoxy when you mix it.

http://www.raka.com

It is in the Accessories section. Look for .....EPOXY PIGMENTS If you use it be careful to mix each batch exactly alike , I used the green and it worked out really good for me.

Here is the Swamp Girl that I used the Green Pigment in the epoxy.

Chuck.

 

[gbinga]

Chuck,

When you use tinted epoxy, do you still have to varnish on top of it to protect the epoxy from the sun?

GBinGA

 

[beekeeper]

Some more information along this line of thinking:
http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/mad-epoxy/ I know painting flies is not the same as painting a boat, but it seems to me it could be possible to epoxy over paint or even mix the two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylic_paint The first link refers to using acrylic paint. This site says exterior latex is an acrylic paint.
If a boat has to be painted or the builder wants it painted, wouldn't it be nice to apply epoxy, paint(color), and UV protection at the same time, or at least have the protection of the hard epoxy over the paint? Somebody has to know if these ideas will work.

beekeeper

 

[oldsparkey]

YEP... Still varnished it.

Try some of the paint on a scrap piece of wood and then the epoxy , I have a feeling that it will not work but I could be wrong.

Chuck.

 

[beekeeper]

Comments and suggestions wanted. The tests have began. Painted these boards to test the idea of putting the epoxy over the paint. A couple of twist have already developed.

Painted 4 pine 1/4" plywood B/C exterior boards with latex porch paint. After the paint cured, coated 2 with epoxy resin, and left 2 with paint only. After the epoxy cured two coats of varnish was applied over the epoxy.

I then had the idea to epoxy over wet paint on 2 boards. These also received 2 coats of varnish after they cured.

Tried mixing the paint and epoxy in equal parts. This turned to a thick paste and seemed to be hardening fast, so I used it between two 2"X2". A small amount of paint (enough to color the epoxy) mixed with the epoxy brushed on and formed a plastic like coat, but very hard. Two coats of varnish added also. Used some of the mix to glue two 2X2's together.

Two more boards received 2 coats of varnish only.

1/2 of the boards have been placed soaking in water. The others are hanging outside.

Top left 2 boards = epoxy/wet paint/varnish. Top right 2 = varnish only
Bottom left 2 boards = epoxy over dry paint/varnish. Bottom right = paint only

Stick on left and top 2X2's are = parts epoxy/paint Bottom 2X2's and plywood boards are epoxy colored with paint
I don't know if the paint accelerated the hardening, because I was trying to make the resign go as far as it would. This caused the coverage to be lumpy.

Outside test or redneck wind chime?

First impressions:
1. All combinations seem viable.
2. The epoxy over wet paint may hold the most promise.
3. Mixing the paint and epoxy may create some interesting usage.
4. Paint over wet epoxy may be worth pursuing.
5. No bonding or lack of hardness issue noted yet.

beekeeper

 

[beekeeper]

I forgot to ask. Is marine varnish water base? Mine is Rustoleum brand and I don't have any with me at this time. If it is, it may could be applied over wet epoxy for a harder and better bond.
I know! I know! Try it on a piece of scrap lumber.
Any ideas for a scuff test to compare these ideas?

beekeeper

 

[Jimmy W]

The Pettit varnish is oil based. I don't know about Rustoleum brand.
How bout putting a weight on them and dragging them over a rough piece of concrete to test for scuff resistance.

 

[oldsparkey]

The Pettit varnish is oil based. I don't know about Rustoleum brand.
How bout putting a weight on them and dragging them over a rough piece of concrete to test for scuff resistance.

Rustolium is an OIL based paint..........What do you think stops the rust when you use it.
Some folks just have to learn the hard way and if he comes up with something new and time tested then all of us can benefit from it. If not then it was just a test in futility but still offers a lot of information about what not to do. A win - win situational no matter how you look at it.

An inquiring mind and someone willing to step out side the box is what helps all of us.

He is going where no one has gone before with a part of his idea . 8) If that scuff test ( the most important item) does not destroy everything he is trying to do with the new ideas.

The answers will be interesting but a lot of us can see where they are going since some of them ( Not all ) have been tried in the past without happy results. :wink:

Some explanation and pictures will to explain the results would be nice.

 

[beekeeper]

Jimmy W
Thank you for the scuff/weight test idea. I could only come up with #8 birdshot at 40yds. Thought that may be what they call a destructive test. Probably wouldn't apply to boating unless you did a lot of fishing in someone's posted pond. :lol:

oldspakey
Thanks, I thought the Rustoleum might be oil based. This test and idea may be for naught, but like fishing "You got to go to know (biting)". Hope I'm not learning the hard way. I belive that'swhat I did when I painted over my epoxy following "standard" recommended procedures for a "durable" finish and have it scrape off each time I use it. The varnished interior scratches from the sand on your shoes. There must be something better to use.
My original question was epoxy over dry paint like hand made baits. Issues with bonding were stated and U.V. protection stuck its ugly head up. I think after doing it, the epoxy over wet paint may work. Paint over wet epoxy may even be better, because it could solve the U.V. protection need. This may just be the equal to epoxy paint you can buy, I don't know. A clear finish that would be hard enough to protect and still show the beauty of the wood would be best.

quote="oldsparkey"]The answers will be interesting but a lot of us can see where they are going since some of them ( Not all ) have been tried in the past without happy results. [/quote]Please share them now. It could save me a lot of work and we will all know not to try them.

beekeeper

 

[oldsparkey]

The scratches on the inside from your feet are easy to handle , just pick up one of the dollar door mats and put it where your feet will be.

Ron used Rustoleum over his glass ( after it cured , or so he told me ) on his boats and it has held up pretty good. Most regular paints will scratch off when it is used over the glass. If you use the epoxy over the paint then it still needs to be varnished to protect it from the UV Rays. If the paint is over the epoxy then forget the varnish , the paint does the protection for you.

As far as I know , no one has tried the paint on the wet epoxy but don't use a oil base paint. A water based paint or stain will work on the boat and then the epoxy or so I have been told , never tried it myself.

I did one boat ( the swampgirl) with a powder ( tint) that was mixed in the epoxy for the green color on the sides. That did not scratch off. :lol: but still required a coat of varnish for the UV protection.

The epoxy paint from Interlux , Brightsides Teflon worked really well on the bottom of the canoe , one kayak and one pirogue in place of the graphite and epoxy mix.

If you leave the sides normal then it is nothing but a good epoxy coating , some sanding and varnish , if they get scratched ( and they will) then some more varnish makes them disappear.

Chuck.

 

[seedtick]

chucky,

what's been your bad experience on epoxy over or under oil based paint?

we put oil based paint over epoxy on our plywood boats with no problem

and i've put epoxy over oil based stain with no problem