Boat build with PVC/vinyl sheeting?

[shikeswithcanoe]

Hi all, new guy here.

Read much of the forum. Have been pondering a small boat build for a small kid. Something like a 8 to 10 foot canoe. Stuff like thats hard to come by commercially and its also usually not cheap.

And I've reviewed all the wooden boat stuff and its got it pluses and minus. And I've looked at other ways to build as well.

Long story short, doing a bunch of reading and thinking, a thought occured to me.

Make a skin on frame canoe. But rather than use canvas, use say 1/16 inch thick plastic sheeting. You can get 4 by 8 PVC sheeting that thick (or thicker) for about 30 bucks. And you can certainly glue PVC together well. A few ribs and stringers and you should be good to go. Except for the bow and stern. I had some sheeting and played with it on my 12 foot bell canoe. you can make it into a canoe shape except for about the last foot on either end.

So, make a normal shaped bow/stern outa wood/glass/both, run stringers/gunnels between both ends, throw in some ribs, cover the whole shebang with your sheeting and your good to row.

The sheeting I happened to have is not PVC. I think its a vinyl I got at Lowes about 5 years ago. I've been playing with it for a couple of weeks and it looks to be fairly glueable with contact cement. With a little care, rivetting looks good too and even a single rivet is pretty damn strong (as is the contact cement). I think you could do a seam with both, with the rivets keeping things from moving much and the glue pretty much keeping it a watertight seal. That metal tape you use to seal household ductwork sticks to the stuff pretty good too, so that another possibility for watertight seal or temporary hole repairs in the field.

I am kinda pumped about the possibilities this might have. Anybody else tried anything like this or heard about it on the net somewhere? I think it could really give the other ways of building a lightweight boat a run for money in someways.

Of course, this boat would be used in water that is rarely over head deep and always within rock throwing distance of dry land so the reliability aspect isnt a high priority. And at 30 dollars a sheet, the stuff doesnt have to be particularly durable/sunproof/longlasting either if the build is such that it can be replaced without much of a hassle.

Thanks folks and take care.

Blll

 

[tx river rat]

This is a pvc kayak built and used in the Florida keys.

He braggs on the process
Ron

 

[Coal]

boat in a bag.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/10/des ... /index.htm

 

[Jimmy W]

Another couple of SOF canoes.
http://www.bushcraft.ridgeonnet.com/Articles and tutorials.htm

 

[shikeswithcanoe]

Interesting links guys.

But all those appear to be REALLY thin materials. 1/16 inch thick plastic is rigid enough to hold a curve on its own with a minimum of structural backing. And you can get it thicker if you don't mind a bit more weight and money. Note that a 1/16 4 by 8 sheet would weigh only about 10 lbs give or take.

Thanks for the input guys.

Blll

 

[Kayak Jack]

Shikes, the standard answer is that, since it has never been done before, it simply cannot be done. So - give up and quit. :wink:

The real answer is, WTH haven't you started yet? Press on and tell us how it goes. You are a pioneer here; blaze a trail.

 

[BEARS BUDDY]

And post pichers--we ciper pichers better'n we ciper riten. Good luck and spare no details about the materials and methods used.

 

[graybeard]

Thomas Yost makes kayaks using this method. Here is his section on PVC skinning. He's even got plans for an inflatable version that uses internal sponsons as part of the frame. He's made a couple with clear vinyl, like the example above (http://yostwerks.com/SeaRiderVinyl.html)
Very complete instructions are given, so you can probably adapt the process to a canoe with a little thought. I'd think getting the thwarts right might be the tricky part.

 

[graybeard]

Forgot to add this:
there is an Instructable about a PVC & polytarp kayak. It's definitely a "I wonder if I could do this?" rather than something I've let my kid in

 

[Kayak Jack]

Coupla comments. First, I see these boats made with a see-through skin that is a film. I see guys showing them off in various settings - indoors, on grass, or on sand. I seldom launch or recover indoors, on grass, or on sand. Well, sometimes on sand. The other 95% of the time I'm in area where rocks and logs seem to have been furnished by Mother Nature.

What I'm getting at here is that, I wouldn't trust the boats with the thin skins that I have seen so far. If Joel Fliescher would make one and paddle it around in Lake Superior, I would trust it. Not the thin film stuff I've seen so far.

That instructable kayak, with the PVC frame, is similar to one I saw at our Quiet Water Symposium. It was an "emergency" boat. The frame was made of brush, tied together in circles or ovals of various sizes for either the longerons of the frame, or for round frames tied to the longerons. Then, a polytarp was wrapped around it, leaving a hole for a cockpit. I would use it to flee an advancing enemy, but not for much else.

The idea proposed here originally, is to skin a boat with sheets of plastic of 1/16" thickness. This is appealing. I think that it would not be as break resistant as plywood, but certainly more puncture and tear resistant than a thin film as I referred to above. Still, I would not want to test it on rocks. It it didn't break, it would at least get scratched all to the devil and downward visibility would suffer badly. (Wouldn't be able to see through it very well either.)

All in all, it is an interesting idea to try out. Whatever is learned can be applied to the next, even more improved model.

 

[graybeard]

A while back, I notice Home Despot had aluminum flashing, 14" x 20 ft for $10. Stronger than vinyl, and possibly stiff enough with gunwales and inwales to use only a minimal frame.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Graybeard, I can agree with the tensile strength of aluminum flashing, but have some concerns. First, would epoxy and fiberglass adhere to it? Without some shielding, I fear that thin flashing would rip open on a rock or stump. Or, if stepped on inside the boat.

Secondly, even if it could be shielded from rupture, would it rumble and boom and crinkle so much as to scare wildlife and anger paddlers?

I don't know if these are valid concerns or not, but, until tested and proven otherwise, I'd have these as strong hangups about aluminum flashing.

 

[tx river rat]

Metal was my business and alum flashing would be a train wreck, its brittle tears easily has very little stregth,vinial would be tougher ,in my opion.
Ron

 

[shikeswithcanoe]

Hey Guys.

Thanks for all the input. Hit Lowes the other day and found that they still carry the sheeting. It was cheaper than I remember. It was about 15 dollars for a 4 by 8 sheet .06 inches thick (bout a 1/16th of an inch). The also had some FRP (fiber reinforced plastic?) that was 0.09 inches thick. That stuff looked a fair bit more stout and rigid than the vinyl sheeting. It was bout 30 dollars a sheet.

I bought the vinyl so I am in potential trouble now. If I don't build something soon I'll hear about it. If I spend too much time on this project and ignore the other honey doos, I also be in trouble. Its a fine line I am walking here.

Laying that full sheet over my 12 foot canoe, its apparent that I will need at least 1 and probably 2 lateral (left-right) seams between the bow and the stern for the stuff to make the curvature without kinks in the material.

I've been torture testing two pieces I glued together with contact cement about 2/3 weeks ago. It alternates between soaking all day in cold water or hot water, outside on cool nights, and inside a car on a sunny day. I also try to pull em apart on a regular basis. As long as I dont pull in such a way that it causes a "peeling" action, that stuff is holding pretty good. I think with rivets AND glue any seam would have a reasonable chance of holding up, and at the least wouldnt be a high leaking disaster.

Gotta run for the moment, just wanted to share a bit of info.

And here is our local paddling club website. We have some nice paddles around here. Check out our trip reports. And on our link section the Green Wave forum is great for info on paddling our area of florida as well as the rest of florida.

http://www.clubkayak.com/wfckc/showpage.asp?page=links


Thanks again guys.

 

[oldsparkey]

Here is something no one said anything about........ The transparent Canoe.

http://www.clearinflatablekayak.com/

Chuck.

 

[graybeard]

Metal was my business and alum flashing would be a train wreck, its brittle tears easily has very little stregth,vinial would be tougher ,in my opion.
Ron

I'll take the advice of experts. (That's the po-lite way to say I'm too lazy to try to prove ya wrong
Not arguing with either of you - the idea was just a "wonder 'bout" for a disposable boat. No sense knocking something together with flashing if heavy vinyl or luan doorskin is more likely to work.

Kayak Jack - I respect your caution around rocks and snags. I wouldn't try something like this in the rivers and creeks around here. I'm in suburbia where every subdivision has a "storm water retaining basin". The developers used to call them "ponds" until they started getting sued when the "storm water retaining basin" dried out and the algae rotted. :roll: Most are 4 ft deep by < 100ft across, some only 40 -50 ft across. Just the place for doing stupid things with an audience.

 

[swamprat]

Using flashing puts me in the mind of Robb White's Making a tin canoe. He took roofing tin and stomped it into shape the formed up the bow and stern by using 1X2 material and sheet metal screws.... Little bit of roofing tar and he was in business! :mrgreen:

 

[shikeswithcanoe]

Hey guys.

Thanks for more input here.

I've been researching epoxies for use on the wood parts of this project. US composites has caught my eye as something reasonably priced but workable. Does anyone have experience with them? Another project looms in the future, so it seems prudent to go ahead and buy a gallon of epoxy (and how much ever hardner).

US composites has two types of epoxy. A thin mix, 635, that is thin enough to wet out fiberglass and be used as a glue (with thickners?), and a 150 which is thick, so thick in fact it is noted to NOT use it with glass because it will not wet glass properly.

Does the thin stuff work okay for glueing wood pieces together? Does it really need thickners or perhaps multiple coats on wood to work? I'll be using a pretty porous white pine in this project.

I'd like to go with the thin stuff if possible so that I can use it with glass future projects. But the fact it is so thin has me a bit worried.

Any more input highly appreciated.

thanks again

Blll

 

[shikeswithcanoe]

Thanks for the info Naz/John.

You are happy with the 625 used as a bonding expoxy? Should I ordered some fumed silicia? as a filler/thickner? Or something else?

I am not clear on how adding a thickner will help the epoxy bond better on close fitting pieces of wood that are being pressed together well. Seems to me you would coat both pieces until stuff quit soaking in, then press them together. Now for pieces with gaps or for fillets it makes sense.

Thanks again for the input.

Blll

 

[oldsparkey]

I use the epoxy from Raka and it works quite well for me. It is what I guess you would call the thin epoxy.

As far as joining pieces , I either coat the one piece and let it soak in then when it is cured apply another coat and stick them together. At times all I do is to put some epoxy on it and stick them together.
If you use a filler , wood flour is what works best for me , especially if the angles are a little off and there is part of a gap to fill. When that sets up then fillet the joint and you have it completed.

For the fillets it is wood flour and some of the glass bubbles , the glass bubbles will lighten the color of the wood used in the fillet but it sure makes it easier to sand , if any sanding is needed. One word of warning , the glass bubbles are microscopic and will go everywhere , like smoke does so be careful when working with them , if you do. Make sure you have some sort of breathing protection on since you don't want to inhale them.

Chuck.