Another New Guy

[TulsaB]

Hello there all,
I have been lurking around a bit for the last two weeks. I have been trying to absorb as much information as I can from you fine folks and I have not been disappointed! I am currently stationed in Mannheim, Germany but I have been bitten by the wood boat bug...among other things I am about to try my hand at building a UJ Pirogue. My wife is on board..so to speak.. and I would like to keep her there. I just ordered my glass, epoxy and other chemical goodies from the fine folks at Raka. Wow, talk about a refreshing change of pace in customer service, they spent twenty minutes on the phone with me and helped me make some tough decisions. Over here, if you find out you are missing something, you have to re-order and wait another two weeks for delivery.

So, to get to the point here, I have to make a decision on some wood. I sadly only have two choices in my area. I can go with 1/4" Poplar or 1/4" Birch. Here is the sadly part, the Poplar is $60 a sheet and the Birch is $80 a sheet. I know it sounds kinda crazy to spend that money but we are really interested in getting started and them's the choices. I was hoping some of you fine gentlemen might be able to offer me some insight on which would be the lesser of two evil's, or two weevils if your into that whole Master and Commander thing

I would appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks,
Billy

 

[oldsparkey]

Well the up side is you only need two 4 x 8 sheets to make a Uncle John Pirogue . Best thing I can suggest is to go and look at the sheets and find the one you like.

The Birch might be better then the Poplar or in the reverse , that would be your decision and what they cost , make sure you are happy with the decision. I am not that failure with the two but I do know the Poplar is a stronger wood when purchasing it in the boards then the Birch.

Since you and your wife will be using it , I would suggest making it the full length so there is plenty of room in there for both of you.
Not pushing the seats I designed ( Uncle John sells the plans for ) but two of them would let the two of you use it as a couple or if only one person wanted to go then as a solo boat. The reason is simple , the seats are not attached to the boat and can be moved around for the paddlers comfort. Plus they keep the center of gravity low so the boat does not feel that tippy , plus they are comfortable.

The other side is if the wife decides she wants her own Pirogue then she has a seat for it and when transporting the two of them they will double stack if there are no decks or permanent seats attached to them.... One just slips ( fits ) right over the other.

The UJ Pirogue is a good 1st build and forgiving on the build so a person can learn the basics and have a good boat to use. Then if they want to advance and build something a little harder ( More complicated) to make they have that knowledge.

What ever you decide on doing , we will be here to help you and answer any questions you might have....... Fortunately the answers we offer will be up to your final decision , heck all of them will be your decision we just offer answers or suggestions about how we do it.

Yes .. Like you I like Raka and especially Larry the owner , he has built a pirogue for his personal use and several more boats so you have some there who knows what you are asking about. The other thing with Larry , if something is not there ( missing ) or wrong , he corrects it . It is nice talking with the owner when you have some questions. I guess you know where I get my glass and epoxy along with some other stuff from. :wink:

By the way ....... Welcome to this nut house. :lol:

Chuck.

 

[captaindoug]

Hello and welcome, Billy. By your comment, "stationed in Germany" I take it you are in the Military. Let me first say, Thank You for your service. Myself and everyone I know are truly thankful for your sacrifice for us here at home. We all hope you finish your job and come home safe.
You are right, for that kind of money, you would think "Marine Plywood'" would be prominent in the name of either of those choices. I'm no expert, but since you have already made a good choice and are going to use epoxy, I think I would choose by weight, lighter weight I mean, if the other qualities were equal. If you glass the entire outside of the boat, and everybody here has a different opinion about this, but the wood is just the mold to attach the fiberglass to. On the other hand, if you are going to build it "old school" with chine logs and fasteners and paint, then the wood is infinitely more important as far as the quality of the wood goes.
Good job getting the better half "on board". The lady of my life was a much more precise and careful (neater) epoxy measurer when I was in the middle of the bigger parts of the glassing, and needed "more goo please", she had a good eye and caught voids and bubbles I missed before it was too late to do any thing about them except sand. I think she is equally proud of both our boats, " cause she helped ". I gotta go with "Old Sparkey" on his suggestion to make as much boat as you can if it is going to have two people aboard. The two I just finished ended up being around 13'-6 for no particular reason, and more would be better for two aboard and the longer version wouldn't be any great burden to paddle with one person.

 

[Jimmy W]

Welcome TulsaB. I used to work for a cargo airline that used Birch plywood on the floors of their aircraft. They said that they had found that Birch would hold up better than any other plywood that they had tried. On the other hand, Robb White a boat builder from south Georgia used to use Poplar for his boats. Of course, he didn't use plywood, but used boards from trees that he cut on his land. Personally, I think that I would go with the Poplar because I'm thinking that it would probably be lighter and still strong enough. Whichever you decide on, make sure that it is exterior plywood with a waterproof glue.

You might want to check with this place. http://www.riversandtides.de/content/section/11/78/ They seem to sell Marine Okume in 4 & 6mm.

Jimmy

 

[Paddlin'Gator]

A couple of other considerations: Poplar, being a softer wood than birch, will probably allow better penetration of the epoxy into the wood. The quality of the inner ply(s) is also important. Often you can get some idea by looking at the edges of the full sheet.
Joe

 

[TulsaB]

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone! I also appreciate all of the experienced opinions and the quick responses.

Chuck - After spending a lot of time reading many of the threads in this forum I came to the same conclusion about the UJ Pirogue being a good starter boat. You also confirmed my suspicion that we should probably go full size with the first one since we will riding tandem for a while. Another thing that sold me on this design is the ability to stack them as you mentioned and we are already planning to build a second one that is slightly smaller for my wife, as our next project. I think I belong in this nut house, haven't even gotten the wood for the first one and I'm already planning for the second one.

Captaindoug - I actually got out of the Army in Dec 2007, after 7 years as a Combat Photographer. Now I work here as a Department of the Army civilian. I still get to work with soldiers and serve Uncle Sam, but now I get to sleep in, pick out my own clothes and most of my exercise comes in the form of lifting fine German beers I think I will wait until I get some experience before I attempt a true "old school" build. My goal for my first is to to build one that is glassed and not painted. I love the look of the wood and I am sure I won't get away without some flaws but I will still be happy as long as it floats. Right now I am leaning toward the Poplar based on the fact that it won't be perfect and at least I'll be messing up cheaper wood. Also, as you mentioned, it is lighter and I am sure I will go overkill with the glass and maybe the trade off will save me some weight.

Jimmy - Thanks for the two examples of where you have seen the different woods used. I think that you are correct about going with the lighter poplar. Since I am going to glass it, I think the stronger but heavier birch might not be necessary. Also thanks for the link. I will check it out this week and see what their prices are like. They plywood is the only thing I have left to buy and I planned to get it on Saturday, so that was some great timing.

Joe - Thanks for your thoughts, that is a great point about the softer wood allowing better penetration of the epoxy. Also, I am adding a note to my shopping list about checking the edges of the sheets for voids.

Thanks again for all the input guys. I'll let you know how it goes as it all plays out.

 

[Kayak Jack]

While epoxy will penetrate the softer wood better, it still may not make it past a glue barrier in between layers.

And, don't get misled too far that the quality of wood in between those layers of glass isn't important; it is. We can sometimes, maybe often, get away with going cheap, but it can catch us at unexpected times, in unexpected ways. Don't economize unnecessarily on something as important as a parachute.

 

[oldsparkey]

Since Jack made a point , I will make a counter point.........We do , do a lot of things ( Not All ) differently. :lol:

Jack likes to use the expensive wood , I use the cheep stuff called "Luann" and so far the ones I have made with it are still together. Lets see....... Hummmmmmm ... "O" Yes it has only been 10 years for the 1st one. :roll:

Now in all fairness they have been epoxy saturated and glassed all the way around and keep inside when not in use. Heck one was even paddled for 4 days down a white water river and took a lot of abuse and it is still going today on camping trips.

Yes , I have made several from the expensive wood but they were furnished in the kits I purchased. Needless to say they were subject to some of the same abuse and survived just like the others.

I like to think of the wood boat as a sandwich ..... Put what you want in the middle ( 2 dollar ham or 10 dollar beef) to make it but the bread on the outside is what holds all of it together. The bread being the epoxy and the glass that is attached to the wood or filling. The better the bread the better the boat. :wink:

Chuck.
Naturally the choice is yours to make........

 

[Paddlin'Gator]

While epoxy will penetrate the softer wood better, it still may not make it past a glue barrier in between layers.

Even with a softer wood, the epoxy is unlikely to even reach a glue line unless the outer plies are very thin. Often plywood with furniture/cabinet grade hardwood surfaces does have incredibly thin outer plies, probably to economize on the more expensive stuff. Unlike marine grade plywood, structural integrity is not the primary consideration because of the intended use in cabinet work or similar applications.

There have been boats built with all sorts of plywood that have served well for many years, especially when they have been epoxy glassed inside and out. Personally, I agree with Jack and prefer to not cut corners on the basic structure of the boat. Normally with this kind of construction, whether a plywood pirogue or a cedar strip canoe, the epoxy/glass skins are relatively thin, and while they do add a lot of stiffness as well as abrasion and puncture resistance, the plywood or strips do play a greater roll than as a spacer between the two skins. In that sense, while it is a type of composite construction, it is not like composite structures where the skins are critical, like in aircraft and larger composite hulls.

I guess it really comes down to what you are comfortable with and how much abuse you expect the hull to experience.

Joe

 

[TulsaB]

Thanks again for all of the great input guys. I decided to finally go with 6.5mm exterior Birch. I got a closer look at the 6mm Poplar and it had several voids and the veneer on one side had some serious holes in it. I asked the guy at the woodshop and he said it was typical of the wood he received, so it helped make my decision a little easier. Thanks for the heads up Joe! They only had two sheets of the Birch and he shanked the cut a bit and knocked a chunk out of one of the sideboards, now I have to wait until Friday when they get their new shipment to get the rest of my wood. That's okay though, I am expecting to receive my goodies from Raka this week as well. I also bought some wood to make saw horses on Friday. I am spending way too much on the plywood so I did some research on making cheap and sturdy horses. I modified a design that I found online and it seems to work pretty well, it took me about two hours to build them. I used four 2x4's and one 4x4 to make the set and they seem very sturdy. My wife and I sat on each one of them, 300 lbs total, and they didn't show any signs of stress. Speaking of the lovely lady, it was my birthday yesterday and she bought me a 7 1/4 miter saw....she is a special woman! I have to wait on the wood this week, so I ordered Chuck's seat design and I will try to finish up those while I have the spare time. I am amazed how much I have learned just by reading these threads on this forum. You should all be proud, this place is awesome. I will update when I take the next step.

Thanks,
Billy

 

[Kayak Jack]

Whereas it's nice if our gals buy us tools with cords on them, it isn't nice for us guys to do the same for them. Go figure.

 

[jdupre']

Welcome, Billy. Good luck on your build. One thing. Asking your wife to use her weight to test the strength of your saw horses can be a touchy thing. " Honey, come over her and sit on this. If it holds you up, it's plenty strong." :lol:

Joey

 

[Kayak Jack]

And if a board cracks....... I'm with Joey on this; risky business.

 

[TulsaB]

I apologize in advance for the length of this post but it has been a long time and there has been a lot going on since my last post.

I ended up waiting almost two months for my supplies from Raka. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I am stationed in Germany and it normally takes 2-3 weeks to get mail from the states. Well, when your address is off by one number, your mail gets sent all around the world and back before it finally makes it to you. I was able to talk to the guys at Raka and they kept me posted on the whereabouts of my package but didn't have any power to do anything about it. No worries, when you live overseas you learn to live with the occasional long wait for stuff.

Well, I am also a Visual Information Specialist for good old Uncle Sam and a photographer working on a degree, so I keep pretty busy. While I was waiting for my epoxy and glass to come in I started a photography project for one of my classes that ended up turning into an all out big deal. I built a a custom set of lights for use in studio work and shot a series of portraits with it for my final project. A friend of mine that recently got representation from a gallery in Paris took an interest in the light kit and commisioned me to build a custom kit for him. Of course, my supplies finally came in when I was in the middle of a light kit build, so it has all been sitting in my garage for the last few weeks.

Now for the fun! I finally started building my Pirogue a couple of weeks ago. I used butt joints on pretty much everything and I made pretty good progress up until the fiberglass phaze. I am including a couple of pictures of the progress up to that point. My wife has been helping me along the way and we have made a pretty good boat building team. When it came time for the fiberglassing, I wish I wouldn't have had my wife helping me. Now don't get me wrong, I love having her help, but I wish it had been just me messing up the boat rather than having some help messing it up Neither of us have ever done anything like this so we learned what not to do as a team. This way we wasted twice as much epoxy and I wil have to spend twice as much time sanding in order to finish it. Actually, now that I mention it, maybe it was alright after all. We learned what not to do together after all, it might be helpful on future builds

Well, anyway here are my photos up to this point. I will submit some more when we get closer to being finished.

 

[graybeard]

Nice boat - even nicer pics. I'm going to assume you cleverly framed the shot to had a terribly messy workshop. If I didn't I might feel guilty about the state of mine.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Tulsa, if your wife willingly, and enjoyingly (new word in our English language) works along side you, it's a very strong sign of friendship. Cultivate the friendship at all costs - even a boat.

And, it's a nice boat.

 

[TulsaB]

Nice boat - even nicer pics. I'm going to assume you cleverly framed the shot to had a terribly messy workshop. If I didn't I might feel guilty about the state of mine.

Thanks Graybeard! I do the epoxy olympics everytime I have to walk down the sides of the boat. My workshop is only 8x19 so I have to dodge many power tools everytime I walk around the boat. I also jumped in with both feet on the epoxy and fiberglass, so I have a freshly epoxied ro sander and pair of scissors Aside from that my workshop is covered with wood scraps, copious amounts of sawdust, multiple coils of wire from the light build and a plastic drop cloth. I tried to crop the photo so there wasn't to much distraction from the dirty workshop.

 

[Bellybuster]

beautiful job on the pirogue. Interesting how the grain on the sides goes up and down instead of lengthwise. Can't say I've ever seen plywood sheets made that way. The birch will make for beautiful brightwork. Looks like a boat made by an experienced craftsman

 

[TulsaB]

Tulsa, if your wife willingly, and enjoyingly (new word in our English language) works along side you, it's a very strong sign of friendship. Cultivate the friendship at all costs - even a boat.

And, it's a nice boat.

That is true. I was just a little frustrated when I wrote that because I knew how much sanding was in my future. Luckily I got the wife to help me out with that also. Thanks for the thoughts!

 

[TulsaB]

beautiful job on the pirogue. Interesting how the grain on the sides goes up and down instead of lengthwise. Can't say I've ever seen plywood sheets made that way. The birch will make for beautiful brightwork. Looks like a boat made by an experienced craftsman

Thanks! I have obviously done a fine job of hiding the flaws in the photos, sometimes it's good to be a photographer by trade I thought the grain was odd also. It was literally the cheapest wood I could get here, at about $70 a sheet with the current exchange rate.