Touring T vs. Touring TV

[jdupre']

At the risk of starting a free-for-all :wink: , what accounts for the difference in performance between the JEM's Touring pirogue and the Touring TV. From what I've read, the TV seems to come much more highly recommended. Tx River Rat swears by it. They're basically the same boat- length, beam , assym. shape and weight. I just don't see how that 1" or so of v in the bottom can make that much of a difference. For that matter, the 15.5 Laker is basically the same hull only about 3 inches narrower. Discuss among yourselves. :mrgreen:

Joey

 

[tx river rat]

JD
The touring t is basically the same as my hot air perow, there great boats ,but in my opion the T_V is in a whole different class. It glides better is just my best all around boat.
Let me put it this way out of all the boats I have built if I had to keep just one it would be the T-V. Look at the reports everyone has posted,me Hairy,Texas Zeke,James hagger,I bet you cant find a negitive in the whole bunch.
Ron
Freedom
Hot air perow
Laker 13
Laker 15 5 a
2 twelve foot perows The bumblbees

 

[Jimmy W]

I've never paddled the TV, but my Touring T is a nice boat. I am sure that the TV would track better, but the T does good with a double paddle and will turn around very easy when you want it to. It will glide for quite a ways when you stop paddling, but will usually end up turning to one side or the other when it slows down.

 

[jdupre']

Ron, I don't doubt that the TV is a fine boat. The proof is in the paddling. I have this crazy thing about wanting to know WHY things work the way they do. If i know the reasoning behind something, I figure I can maybe improve on the performance. If that little bit of V in the TV's bottom works better, what other small things might one change to make it even better.

Daddy always said I asked more questions than any kid he knew. And he said he didn't have answers for a lot of them. :mrgreen:

 

[JEM]

If you keep the same boat height and have a flat bottom on one and a slight V on the other, the one with the slight V won't displace as much water (less hull volume). This allows the hull to sit a bit deeper in the water (as compared to the flat bottom with the same load) and provides more stability.

On paddle craft, drafting 3-4" is ideal for speed and stability.

The V does provide a little better tracking and a little bit more predictable stability. Not a whole lot more stability, but a touch more.

Now as for why the T-V seems to be favored more, I think because Ron build the TV and sung the praises on high for it. He's the public relations guy for that design. :lol: More folks hear about it. I think also the V gives the impression more of a kayak than the flat bottom T.

 

[jdupre']

If
On paddle craft, drafting 3-4" is ideal for speed and stability.

Matt, a flat bottom seems to work best in my home waters(logs-real skinny water and such) . I'm wondering if a flat bottom pirogue with the same general width and length as a 14' or 15.5 Laker , drafting 3"-4" , would be a relatively fast cruiser.
Joey

 

[tx river rat]

Jd
First let me say the perow is a great boat, the reasons for my love for the T-V I will try to explain and my theory of why it works so well for me.
The slight v in the bottom gives you a more rounded shape than the flat bottom so water doesnt grab it as bad,with the decks and cockpit configuration it is ideal for camping and still pretty fast,will carry a heck of a load and still preform,tracking is improved,stability is great,my seat is set 9 inches above the floor,very comfy.
The v is so shallow that you never know its there after you paddle it a while,you learn to lean just a little,then you are on a flat just like your perow.
The things it does better in my opion than the perow,
Going upriver against the current there is a noticable difference,T-V is way faster and easier to paddle.
Tracking and glide are better
the v really helps you in the wind with my decks wind just isnt much of a factor ,in the perow it is,
Control ,I have learned how to lean (heel) the boat and it really makes a difference in boat control I can turn on a dime.
This design came from James and I sitting down and talking about what we considered the perfect boat for our local ,the T-V was what we came up with,and Matt designed it and drew the plans. I have to say she is a winner.
On another forum I coined the phrase (location sensitive) the T-V fits that phrase for me,I paddle a big variety of water ,shallows ,open lakes,rivers with swift shallow waters ,narrow rivers that have a lot of logs and log jams,and a very
windy place at times,also do a lot of upriver paddling against the current I wanted to handle these conditions with up to 500 lbs of camping gear and multiday trips.
One last thing,since I built the Laker 13 all my boats have a v bottom,are asymetrical.at least 15ft long , so you ca see why I am impressed with the v bottom.
Ok I will go back to my corner now.
Ron.

 

[JEM]

Matt, a flat bottom seems to work best in my home waters(logs-real skinny water and such) . I'm wondering if a flat bottom pirogue with the same general width and length as a 14' or 15.5 Laker , drafting 3"-4" , would be a relatively fast cruiser.
Joey

it could be pretty fast. There's some hull shape characteristics that are part of the TV that help as well. Little things that I've developed and found to work well to help move the boat through the water. The characteristics I'm referring to are tough to plan for with an Uncle Johns style of building (by eye). Nothing wrong with that method but the software I use allows me to better predict hull speed and understand how changes in the hull impact that speed.

 

[tx river rat]

JD
I paddle a lot of homebuilt boats,Matts are very efficient.
Ron

 

[beekeeper]

If you keep the same boat height and have a flat bottom on one and a slight V on the other, the one with the slight V won't displace as much water (less hull volume). This allows the hull to sit a bit deeper in the water (as compared to the flat bottom with the same load) and provides more stability.

How does the V make it more stable? I can see how it would be more efficient in motion, but don't follow the stability statement. Does the V act as a skeg? Does the increase in stability off set the loss of freeboard (hull sitting lower in the water)? If a V bottom leaned 2" less than a flat one, but sat 3" deeper, wouldn't it take on water sooner?

Thanks
beekeeper

 

[JEM]

More boat in the water = more stability, generally. The V won't displace as much water as a flat bottom and let's the hull sit deeper in the water.

Again this is a general statement comparing 2 hull of the same size and design except the bottom shape. I might have to draw up a sketch to illustrate.

 

[jdupre']

Matt, what is the bottom width on the standard TV?

What factors are at work that favor a 3-4" draft? I would think the boat being narrower, causing it not to displace as much water, would allow it to sit deeper in the water. Maybe it's the fact that it's narrower, as opposed to sitting deeper that accounts for the speed. :?: :?:

 

[JEM]

I would think the boat being narrower, causing it not to displace as much water, would allow it to sit deeper in the water. Maybe it's the fact that it's narrower, as opposed to sitting deeper that accounts for the speed. :?: :?:

Generally, if you can get a hull to sit deeper in the water without changing width, it will be more stable.

 

[beekeeper]

If I understand the discussion so far the V bottom sits lower in the water, increasing the boats "foot print", makeing it more stable. Wouldn't decreasing the bottom width and increasing the flair of the sides have the same effect on stability?

A boat with a wider bottom and/or more flare in the sides would sit even higher, but also be more stable, correct? I may be confused, but seems increasing the boats foot print is what increases the stability, not how deep it is in the water?

Question; Two boats with same lines, one with a narrow bottom but wider flared sides vs one with wider bottom but sides not so flared, both flat bottom (for now), both have same foot print, which one would be faster?

Does sitting deeper in the water make a boat faster. All my boats sit low in the water when I step in. Keeping the sides above water is my goal.

beekeeper

 

[Kayak Jack]

I think we need to start differentiating here, between primary and secondary stability. Also, on predictability of stability and its loss, ending in capsize.

My experience with flat bottomed boats is that they provide a lot of primary stability, but convert from "almost tipped over" to "completely tipped over" in something less than 1/10,000 of a second. Boats with a shallow vee, or even better yet a shallow rounded bottom, convert in a slower, more predictable fashion and extended time. With sides that flare outwards some, a hull seems to actually resist tipping, and gets more stable as it approaches the breaking point.

 

[Jimmy W]

My Touring-T, I can lean over until the tumblehome panel just touches the water surface and it seems to firm up somewhat at that point. It probably wouldn't take much to turn it over from there, but I can hold it at that point.

 

[tx river rat]

Lord this topic takes in a lot of things that dont really show up initially.
Stability,like Jack says initial and secondary. now I am just a shade tree boat builder and i figure my opinion is not worth much,but here goes. we all know that the higher you sit in a boat the tippier (is that a word) it is,sit lower the more stable it is. I think hull design round ,v works on that same principle.
Other things that affect stability are length,and this is a personal opinion but asymmetrical where you have your rear in the widest part of the boat seems to make a lot of difference.
A laymans way of explaining the advantage of the v bottom,take a board stand it up drag it threw water you are pushing a wall of water and it will be hard to keep the board from fluttering,now at the same depth cut a v accross the bottom of the board and drag it at same depth and speed threw the water, first no flutter,second much less resistance. these two things add up to good glide and speed for energy expended.
Jimmy I can lean in my t_v till water starts coming in the cockpit,bet I couldnt do that with out flipping in my perow.
I hope this is clear as mud lol
Ron

 

[Kayak Jack]

Sea Kayaker Magazine has charts depicting pounds of force to upset test boats. They test with, as I remember, 150 & 250 pound paddlers, with and without 150 pounds of cargo. They do not say how far above waterline or bottom of the boat they are attaching a tug line to pull the paddler & boat over, but it is a standardized way of testing.

Loading configuration is important, seat height is important, body configuration is a variable as well as total body weight. Were we to line up an array of boats, standardize a paddler's weight & body configuration, standardize loading configuration, and standardize to where we apply the sideways push or pull to capsize a boat, we could then talk in specifics. Otherwise, we're talking in generalities.

Another variable that is impossible to quantify is how much effect a paddler has by both moving within the cockpit and bracing his paddle in the water. An inert, constantly upright, test dummy paddler would produce consistent, but maybe unrealistic, results?

I have difficulty understanding Ronnie's assertion about where a paddler is seated in relation to the widest part of a boat. Since the entire boat leans and capsizes as a unit, I see very little difference. Seated at the narrowest part, a paddler would have less side leverage to apply torque to a hull. Seated at the widest part, he would have a longer lever arm and thus more leverage to apply torque. The kicker here is, the boat has exactly the same ratio of counter-torque as the paddler. IE: Less at the narrow part and more at the wider part. So, Ronnie, I see that as a non-issue. Tests would enlighten us both, I suspect. Color me ready and willing to learn.

 

[beekeeper]

I apologize if my questions about stability has diverted the discussion away from Joey's speed question. One last thing and I will ask any other questions about stability in another post.
All factors being equal(foot print, seat height,etc.) the V bottom must be acting as a keel to increase stability, correct?
Tippier = primary stability = almost turned over = "that was close" = "I better sit down", correct?
Secondary stability = completely tipped over = "that's cold" = "dad gum it" or something like that, correct?

beekeeper

 

[Kayak Jack]

We haven't abandoned Joey's question of speed; we just took a side trail in getting there. "Primary" stability is what you feel as a paddler, as the boat squiggles around underneath you in a non-threatening way. "Secondary" stability is the boat's resistance to capsizing, just before it does.