More Questions about the Marsh Pirogue.

[FlaMike]

Things been a little interesting around here, what with me putting some "medical history" behind me where it belongs, and then the wife starting a couple of new chapters, herself. All that is just now starting to settle, but of course we now have the other little item that I hear has been making the rounds lately, the freaking financial end of the world!!!

:shock: Did I say that out loud?

Oh well, scrape it off your boot and drive on. . . 8)

I've been going over everything I could find on the Forum about building the Marsh style pirogue. Seedtick was kind enough to send me a CD with the pictures that are no longer available in the Forum post about the Marsh Pirogue he and Friend Kieth built for the Duck's Unlimited raffle back in 2007. Or at least that's when the thread was posted, anyway. And while he was at it, he pretty much filled up the disk with a whole bunch of other pics and I've spent a LOT of time just studying them ALL! (Thanks again, seedtick!!!)

Re-reading that thread, and several others on the same subject has answered most of my questions, but as always, I have a few more. . . So all are welcome to chime in, as usual.

What size boards should I be looking for to make the chine log and that one cross piece on the bottom out of? And what kind of wood? Not real sure what's available, but I will be looking for a regular lumber yard to hunt up some long pieces, 14 to 16 feet. We talking a good hard wood here? Or would a clear pine work?

And I'd like to ask the same about the rails, too.

I still have to see if the old cypress mill is still up and running. If not, there might be another within driving range. I'm pretty sure I want cypress for the seat, (and maybe the breastworks as well?) Maybe cypress for all the framework?

Now, I have ordered the plans from Friend Kieth's web site for the Swamp Pirogue, and maybe some of my questions will be found in those, but until they get here, curiosity is getting to me. Still working on that "patience" thing. . .

I will be using more of my thin luan ply to work out the shape of the sides for the Marsh Pirogue, this time in full size. (Did some half-sized experiments a little while back.) And the full-sized luan sides will be used as templates and help me figure out how to get both side pieces out of a single sheet of marine ply. I'm still thinking about 12 or 14 feet. Having spent so much time looking at the pics from seedtick, I'm thinking the 12 footer would do fine for me, since I want to make it as hassle-free as possible for transport and launching, particularly as I tend to go mostly solo. (I know, not the best idea, but it does suit me.)

In the mean time, I'll be setting up surveillance on the mail box, waiting for the Swamp Pirogue plans to show up!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[seedtick]

glad you liked the disk

All of the wood trim for us is sinker or old growth cypress. The old growth stuff grew very slowly and will typically have 25 to 50 (or more) growth rings per inch. The new growth or grow back cypress has a lot fewer rings per inch and is not as water/bug resistant as the old growth.

There's no hard and fast dimensions for the trim pieces - the chine is roughly a 3/4" X 3/4" diamond cut the match the angle of the flare at the middle of the boat, so you'd likely start with a 3/4" X 1 1/2" cut something like \__\. The top rails are 5/8 to 3/4 thick and 1 to 1 1/2 wide, depending on the curvature you need for the top rail - thinner, narrower bends easier. Watch the ring orientation on the rails so you don't set yourself up for splitting. The outside of the tree should be the outside of the boat. We also cut the bottom of the top outside rail at an angle so it will tend to slide off of an obstruction. The top rail is pretty tortured fit the shear of typical marsh pirogue so you'll need plenty of clamps and an extra hand or two for an easy installation.

 

[FlaMike]

Exactly what I needed to know!

And it was those general dimensions I was looking for, not precise measurements, as each of these are unique.

I'll try the closest cypress mill first, and then maybe one just a few miles further on, as they do have some sinker cypress. Just thinking that there isn't all that much framing, so maybe the chines, rails, seat & breastwork could be out of the "good stuff," maybe. . . Never hurt (much) to ask. :roll:

While looking around, I will see what they have in the way of 20" or wider planks, in the 16' (or more) lengths. Both new and old growths.
If any of the new growth looks good, I'll post some pics of it, to ask if it might be worth trying for a plank pirogue. Might be better to try building one of those out of the new growth stuff before working on the sinker material. (That could result in some darned expensive sawdust!)

For now, I've got to go back to staring at the mail box!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

I forgot to ask, what is the purpose of the hole in the breastworks? In some of the pics, it looks like just a 1 inch of so hole, in others where the breastwork is very thick, it seems to be more elaborate, with a much larger hole at the top, and it tapers to a somewhat smaller size about halfway through the wood.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

PS
Plans for the Swamp Pirogue came today.
Made a new thread in the General Forum about that.
ms

 

[seedtick]

If you pass a round over or ogee router bit around the hole, it will look fancy

The hole is for pointy bottom beer cans, a candle or a rope, Your choice, but you would be surprised at how many folks ask that same question.

 

[FlaMike]

I’d love to use Okume marine ply, but the source is further than I want to drive and the price is about $20 or more per sheet, IF they have the thickness I need. So, it looks like I’ll be using the more common Douglas Fir marine plywood. I did a lot of looking around and found that something of a consensus exist on fir marine ply.

First off, it’s been around and used successfully for years. The quality of the material, like plywood in general, has declined. From all I’ve been able to find out, the main reason many would rather not use the fir ply, is that it has a tendency to “check.” Looking at the Wooden Boat Forum, their version of the “conventional wisdom” is that epoxy and fiberglass cloth will keep the ply from checking, epoxy alone (as a sealant?) will not.

Once the “fur stops flying” and cooler heads prevail in their discussion, I gather that it really boils down to deciding if you want to go with the cloth & epoxy, or are you willing to do the maintenance required to keep the wood in good condition. And that would be doing a little touch-up sanding & painting, as needed.
It often gets pointed out that marine plywood has a history of successful use that pre-dates epoxy and fiberglass cloth.

I kind of want to go a little more “old school” in my next build. I’ve done the epoxy, cloth, & ply thing, now I want to try the older way, maybe a little more “traditional.”
Seedtick says he’s trying using an epoxy skim coat on ply boats, but hasn’t been doing it long enough to be able to say if it’s a good thing, or not.
I was thinking about using a watery-thin version of epoxy, no cloth, followed by paint. I wrote and asked a company that makes the very thin epoxy and here is part of the reply I got:

“Yes, many boats do very well when done the traditional way, including my own 12-foot personally restored Chris-Craft runabout. If you cut and fit all the pieces, including drilling (and countersinking) all screw holes, and then disassemble it and soak everything in the Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer, it will do fine.”

“An oil-base enamel outer coating should be adequate; a porch-and-deck enamel from a Benjamin Moore store is serviceable and easy on the budget. Paint the outside 2-3 coats and leave the inside bare or only lightly stained with a color-wash of one coat of the same enamel, thinned to stain the wood. That's what Chris Smith did when he built his first boats over a hundred years ago, and that design of a moisture-diffusion-barrier on the outside and a thin finish on the inside that allowed water to easily evaporate out of the wood is why so many Chris-Crafts survived so many years and the Hackers and Hunters and Gar-Woods did not.”

I’ve seen his company’s web site where they have posted info on a fairly interesting test of their materials and methods, and found them to be at least interesting, and worth consideration. However, I do question what seems to be conflicting information in those two paragraphs.

The first paragraph talks about completed coverage of the wood, on all sides. The second says you want a barrier on one side, and only a thin finish on the other. I’ll have to write him back and ask about that apparent contradiction.

I have made up my mind about not using fiberglass cloth on this build, as it won’t be needed for strength. I am thinking about using epoxy as a glue, not much doubt about that. What I’m still mulling over is do I want to use epoxy as a sealant, and if so, do I use it on both sides, or just the outside.

If I do use epoxy as a sealant, I think I might try this very thin version as I think it will have the best chance of soaking in better than the standard epoxies, as it was designed specifically to do just that.

EDIT: OMG! Now I'm really starting to wonder if I DO want to use epoxy as a glue?!? Maybe WeldWood, or 5200?

So, any thoughts?

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[jdupre']

Mike, I was thinking about an inside finish that would allow water to evaporate quickly. The idea hit me while I was washing the every-day paring knife. This knife has been used several time a week for 25 years. It gets washed or rinsed off after every use. It has an unfinished wood handle that dries pretty fast. No checking, splitting or rot. Now I know plywood is different animal with the edges of the plies exposed, but I think the idea of a really thin finish has some merit.

Joey

 

[seedtick]

an old boatbuilder down on the coast told us that he used whatever glue was the best at the time.

literally thousands of boats have been built with weldwood as it was the "best" and many built with weldwood are still serviceable today. Weldwood is good but it is somewhat brittle which is a two edged sword - brittle glue not terribly good with a flexing wood boat but it does make repairs easy.

We've used 5200 on a couple of boats. It's a good glue and flexible, but it smears badly, doesn't fill gaps or sand readily and you have to cut away the wood to make repairs.

Oyster has had good results with polyurethane construction glue

We've been using West Systems filled epoxy for about six years now and really like it. On a lot of our cutoffs, scarfed joints for example, we'll break the glued pieces and never had a failure at the glue line, always the wood. If we ever have to do a repair, I suspect it'll be like 5200 and require cutting out the wood

 

[Kayak Jack]

<SNIP> We've been using West Systems filled epoxy for about six years now and really like it. On a lot of our cutoffs, scarfed joints for example, we'll break the glued pieces and never had a failure at the glue line, always the wood. If we ever have to do a repair, I suspect it'll be like 5200 and require cutting out the wood

And, that's the true acid test of a glue joint. What fails - the joint, or the parent material?
Every time we fasten two pieces of anything together, we make it heavier, weaker, or both. But, a glued scarf joint, comes awfully close to beating that conventional wisdom!

 

[FlaMike]

Well, maybe I went a little over the edge wanting to go a little more "traditional old school."

I figured if was going to start nailing in some ringed boat nails and plane the surfaces for a real tight, smooth fit, that I might use a wood adhesive that remained a little flexible, and maybe gave me a little more working time than my previous epoxies did. Most of the time, I used Raka's medium and fast hardeners mixed, for an "in between" working time. For really long joints, some times I had to really rush. I guess if I switched to their slow hardener, it would give me the time I need, even in the Florida heat.

Besides, I think I'd feel better with the scarf joints in the side and bottom panels using the tried & true epoxy.

Guess if I "stick" the Raka epoxy I wouldn't have to go crazy with the nails, just enough to actually do the job of holding things together 'till the glue kicks off. Then I could leave them there, so I'd at least feel like I "nailed her together." (Uh, so to speak.)

So, anyone have any thoughts about using that super thin epoxy, CPES from Smith & Company, as a sealer for the outsides and bottom, rather than a skim coat of our usual brands?

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

Just in case anyone is still interested, I found out from the guy what dreamed it up that the CEPS seriously thin epoxy is best thought of as a primer, not a complete sealer. I do think our "standard" boat building epoxies are better for actually sealing the wood. If I was only looking to protect the wood and not add strength to it, I would use the CEPS as the primer and then paint it well and call it a day.

At this point, I'd have to say that I might do just that inside the boat, but go back to considering using glass cloth on the outside, since in all likelihood,the boat will get used in salt marshes where grounding on oysters will happen, not just in fresh water rivers & the Green Swamp, (as I was originally thinking.) If I do that, then perhaps the way to go will be to bring the glass up to the water line, and stop it there. But for looks, might be even better to bring it on up to the top of the sides and let the rub rail at the top cover the end of the cloth.

And if I'm talking about protecting the bottom from oysters and such, I suppose I might as well do the graphite thing up to the water line as well. I seem to be coming full circle here.

Still could go with the CEPS on the inside and try out the "thin wash of color" idea to let the wood dry out between uses. I dunno. Information overload strikes again. :shock:

Still got time before I can start building to change my mind several more times, though! :lol:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[FlaMike]

Even though I seem to be talking to myself, I DID change my mind, (or might be about to. . .)

Still thinking about staying away from the fiberglass, so if I use seektick's idea about a skim coat of epoxy on the ply, what about using the graphite/epoxy mix on the bottom of the boat, and up the side to the waterline, to help protect from oyster attacks and barnacle bites?

Think it might at least minimize the usual saltwater bottom scratches?

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL