Help... my bottom's looking dodgy and my varnish won't dry!

[stevesteve]

Morning all,

My pirogue is now almost done

I have fitted pine breasthooks which I have faired to match the camber of the rails.

I have two outstanding problems:

Problem One
I tried a little varnish on the rails but after 4 days it still had not dried properly - it remained tacky. Could this be due to not waiting a month for the epoxy to go off completely?

Problem Two
Taking the boat out of the workshop to take the photos I clipped the bottom on the end of the ladder that I have used as a base for building.
One scratch

and one larger patch

It looks like the glass has delaminated from the bottom. How can I repair this and how worried should I be in terms of how the bottom will behave in use?

 

[bearridge]

Friend double steve,

I caint answer none of yer questions 'n I am sorry fer yer bad luck, but that iz a fine lookin' boat. Dang good on ya!

regards
bearridge

He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever. Chinese Proverb

 

[oldsparkey]

Unless I am not looking at it correctly it appears as though it needs a coat or two more of epoxy to fill the weave.
To me it looks like some of the glass has not been impregnated with the epoxy and is still white and not clear like soaked or treated glass becomes.

You might say the glass looks like it is epoxy starved. If the glass has delaminated , the only thing that I know of that causes that action is some form of grease or oil on the wood which would not let the epoxy into the wood.

Chuck.

 

[BEARS BUDDY]

Beautiful woodwork Steve. As for the glass, even though it is extremely painful to be agreeing with him, I believe Chuck is right. You need to sand out that white spot and re-glass it, then, apply another coat of epoxy to fill the weave. How long did the epoxy set before you varnished? Did you wash the surface and scuff with fine sandpaper before varnishing?

 

[oldsparkey]

Before all of you start screaming that something happen to your posts .... YEP. Something happen ....... They are gone into cyber space.

Since this is the serious section and Steve has a worry on his mind and needs some help , or is looking/asking for help on correcting the problem with his boat ................ I DELETED THEM.

Chit chat is nice but not when someone has a problem and is worried so in the serious section ... lets keep it that way.

I am sure that all of you would not appreciate some one cutting the fool on your post when you have a ligitment worry about the boat you spent your time , energy , creativity and labor on and then have a problem with it. I know I would.

The mean ,nasty, evil , party pooping old fart in the south..... Me.

 

[Kayak Jack]

But, Chuckieeeeee, it sez "Serious Boat Building QUESTIONS". Sez nuthing about answers. sigh

Watch the grumpy ole phart delete this too. double sigh

 

[keith]

Ha Steve, I dont do much of that glass stuff BUT, I agree with chuck and BB. more epoxy and wash/ sand ( you need to wash before sanding to get the blush off without being air born). what epoxy are you useing? and no to that 3 day or 3 week wait stuff ( that was what they did in the old days ) and yes your boat look very good, nice work. later keith

 

[hairymick]

Hi Steve,

Beautiful work on the build mate.

Re the fibreglassing, I agree with Chuck and the others. Your woven matt is resin starved. All the literature I have read reckons that you should be able to completely fill he weave in three coats.

I use very light weight matt and still can't fill it in only three coats. Perhaps I am doing something wrong - or screeding too hard, I don't know. What I do know is that when your last coat of resin goes on and sets up, the surface should be glass smoothe with no sign of the matt to feel or to see. It takes me about 5 coats.

Re the de-lamination, Sorry to say mate, but the lamination of glass-ply-glass in an integral part of the strength of the boat. The de-laminated part of the glass needs to be competely removed and then that area needs to be re-glassed.

 

[JEM]

it does look like you glass needs some resin. Did you sand it before this picture or something?

 

[oldsparkey]

The more I look at it the more it appears to a shortage of epoxy. The clear areas is where the epoxy filled the cloth the white lines are where the epoxy did not fill the glass.

Before doing the whole boat over ...... I would take one area (small) and try some more epoxy on it and see what happens. If it clears the area up and makes the glass disappear then you have the answer , if it doesn't then you have a lot of work ahead of you.

On the up side , I don't think the glass delaminated on you , I think it just needs more epoxy to fill the weave. The reason I say that is because you don't have a white bubble (blister) under the glass which means the glass did not stick to the wood. You can see where some of the glass stuck ( the lower part of the weave in the glass ) but the top weave is not filled.

I wish I could see it in person then the guessing would be over with and we would know for sure. Try my idea in the bold print and see what happens.

Chuck.

 

[stevesteve]

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions everyone. I did try to explore the damaged area and found that the layers came apart with little or no resistance. The inside seems sound by comparison.

The glass is two layers of epoxy down and yes I had real trouble getting it to wet out at the time.

I popped into the local hardware store in town and bought a scraper. A quick scrape over the surface and this is the result.

Nasty, even though I say so myself. It looks like I am going to have to scrape the whole outside down to the glass, possibly back to the wood. The scary thing is that even if I have the time/money to do it, I don't yet know what I did wrong the first time. There seems to be almost no bond between the layers of epoxy, even though I sanded the whole thing with a RO sander between coats.

 

[JEM]

are you using polyester resin or epoxy?

Some fiberglass is coated/treated specifically for one or the other.

 

[bearridge]

Friend double steve,

Now ya need that perfect country song David Allan Coe wrote.....the one the High Sheriff deleted, some pints of dark beer 'n some pals. That looks bad. I hope the boat buildin' fellas kin come up with a good plan. Yer boat looks too dang good ta stay off the water.

I wuz lookin' forward ta the pichurs. :cry:

regards
bearridge

If life seems jolly rotten,
There's something you've forgotten,
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps,
Don't be silly chumps.
Just purse your lips and whistle. That's the thing.
And...

Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the right side of life,
[whistling]

 

[a Bald Cypress]

boat

2x Steve,

Could ya maby tell us just what type of glass and epoxy ya used ?.

From the looks of it, you are in for a lot of scrapeing, sanding and re-aplying of fiberglass.

Tha GOOD side of this is it can be fixed and altho it willl require a bit more investment, in the end it will be worth it.

I don't know what the policy is on links, but this one can be removed by an admin if it is not acceptable.

If I were you, I would go here http://www.raka.com/ talk to Larry and get what you need for the bottom of the boat. Excellent service and very helpfull. No sweat, Baldy, Larry at RAKA is one of us. Jack here


That boat is looking to good not to be completed.

 

[oldsparkey]

Cypress

On here any information is accepted , if a person believes in the product and does use it.

99% of us use the epoxy from Raka.

Stevesteve
It sounds to me like you had some form of oil , grease or something along those lines get on your boat before you did the epoxy. They are the one thing that will cause the very problem you are having.

Could your sandpaper of had some form of oil on it ? Or was it two different types of epoxy ?
Between coats did you ( or someone else) do something in the work area where a fine film of oil could of gotten on the original coat ? Even spraying something in the area with WD-40 could of done it.

In the picture it looks like the original coat of epoxy held.

Chuck.

 

[stevesteve]

Thanks Guys,
It was all epoxy from 'UK Epoxy Resins' http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/.

Rob is the owner and is a good guy. I am awaiting some feedback from him having also posted this on http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk where Rob is now a member as well. It's all very frustrating as I just want to get on the water!

To answer some of your questions:
* I used Epoxy resin.
* Sanded between coats with a RO sander.
* New paper on the ROS.
* Also used new hand sanding blocks.
* No oils being used / sprayed in the workshop during resin coating.

I would happily use Larry's (Raka) resins but he's in FL and I am in the UK. He has excellent prices and I know he is widely used in the Southernpaddler neighbourhood.

 

[hairymick]

Hi Steve,

I'm buggered if I know what went wrong mate.

Is there any heavy industry in your area? What is industrial pollution like where you are? Could fallout from one of these plants have contaminated your resin? I have never heard of it happening but in light of your answers, who knows, maybe just a bodgee batch of resin..

 

[seedtick]

Stevesteve wrote
"There seems to be almost no bond between the layers of epoxy, even though I sanded the whole thing with a RO sander between coats."

did you wash off the amine blush with water?
amines are oily and need to be removed by washing or wet sanding, dry sanding just moves the amines around on the surface

 

[JEM]

Did you apply a coat of epoxy to the wood and let it cure before applying the fiberglass? Was there more than 72 hours between doing this and applying the fiberglass?

If so, you might have gotten some amine blush going on. If I have a long period between epoxy/fiberglass, I usually give the surface a quick sanding, a quick scrub with acetone, then a wipe down with a damp cloth. Maybe spend 5 minutes each on the sanding and acetone scrub. Nothing extensive.

But to have the entire surface act like this points toward a bad epoxy mix or something up with the fiberglass.

Did you use the same fiberglass on the hull interior? Any issues there?

 

[dangermouse01]

Did you use tack cloth to wipe the boat after sanding or at any time during the build? Do not use tack cloths on you boat while building, they leave a residue behind that can cause epoxy not to stick.

Is your clothes washer/dryer (or the dryer vent) in the vicinity of where you are building your boat? Fabric softener and laundry sheets used in the proximity of your work area can cause surface contamination and cause epoxy sticking problems.

DM